This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: We begin today’s show in Lebanon, where Israel continues to bombard the southern suburbs of Beirut. Health officials report Israel carried out at least 17 strikes overnight, leveling numerous buildings, including the offices of Al Mayadeen, a Lebanese news station. Lebanon’s National News Agency described last night’s attacks as the “most violent” in the area in recent weeks. Israel also killed three Lebanese soldiers in a strike in the southern part of the country. Israel continues to defy international calls for a ceasefire in Lebanon.
This comes as French President Emmanuel Macron hosted an aid conference for Lebanon in Paris. Macron reiterated his call for a ceasefire and vowed to send over $100 million in humanitarian aid to Lebanon.
AMY GOODMAN: We go now to Beirut, Lebanon, where we’re joined by Rima Majed. She’s an assistant professor of sociology at the American University of Beirut.
Thanks so much for being with us. If you can start off by talking about what’s happening in one of the oldest cities in the world, in Tyre in southern Lebanon?
RIMA MAJED: Yes. Thank you so much, Amy, for having me on the show again.
What was happening yesterday was very, very disheartening, but it’s really a crime of — you know, of a global scale. Tyre is a very central city in terms of archaeology, of history. And, you know, this has been the second city. So, Tyre is a city that is in the south and that is inhabited by a large population. This is the second city in the south, large city in the south, that is being destructed in a systematic way.
Yesterday, what we’ve — reports say that the old ruins of Tyre have been hit by strikes. We have seen similar reports from other archaeological and historical sites, such as Baalbek, before. These are ruins that have survived thousands of years and that are being now destroyed by Israel. Unfortunately, we are not seeing the same alarm that we saw when other ruins, whether in Syria or Iraq, were targeted. And I think this is a very important issue to flag and to talk about.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: So, Rima Majed, can you say why you think these attacks on these ruins have not received the kind of attention they should? Has UNESCO, for example, at least made a comment?
RIMA MAJED: Yeah, I think — I mean, I think the whole war on Lebanon is not receiving the attention that it needs to receive. I mean, there is a full-blown war that is taking very little space in the global media, for several reasons. One of them is, unfortunately, wars in this part of the world have become material for consumption, and there’s maybe media fatigue. But also, there’s an impunity that Israel has been enjoying since a long time, but that has become very flagrant since last year, where at this point what we cover is survival and bare life. I mean, there’s so much to cover in terms of people — you know, forced expulsions, people dying, that talking about ruins and history and archaeology is maybe seen not as a priority. But, I mean, it’s a devastating conflict, or it’s a devastating war, that is destroying all sorts of life on this land, whether social life or even when we think about history.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Rima Majed, if you could respond to what we said earlier, which is that France has pledged over — has pledged 100 million euros in support, humanitarian aid support, to Lebanon, and, in particular, also comment on what the defense minister, the French defense minister, Sébastien Lecornu, said earlier this week, on Monday, that, quote — and this is a quote from him — “Our position” — that is to say, France’s position — “right now is primarily driven by the fear of an imminent civil war in Lebanon”?
RIMA MAJED: Sure. So, on the question of humanitarian aid, I mean, France has just pledged today. In the same conference in Paris, the UAE has also pledged, and I’m sure other countries will pledge money. Unfortunately, I mean, this is the hypocrisy of this global system. What we’re getting — I mean, we’ve gotten to this point where humanitarianism has become really dehumanizing. The same countries that are sending — I mean, many of those countries that are sending us humanitarian aid are at the same time selling arms and sending arms to Israel to kill us. And the profit they make out of the arms industry is way bigger than what we get in terms of humanitarian aid. So, in that sense, it’s become really dehumanizing that we’re turned into objects of humanitarian support that targets, again, just bare life. I mean, the aim now is for people to survive, to have shelter, even if it’s not decent shelter, and, you know, just the basics of survival. We don’t talk about social lives that have been disrupted, about dreams that are gone, about plans that are now up in the air, about families that have been — you know, that have lost loved ones or been displaced. So, I think this is way bigger than anything humanitarian aid can solve. And we saw last week, when President Macron tried to insinuate that France should consider an arms embargo on Israel, I mean, we saw the backlash from Netanyahu and others. So, I think, you know, at this point, to me, this is really hypocritical.
On the second point of the comment on a possible civil war in Lebanon, there’s a lot of talk inside the country and outside, of course, about the possibility of sliding into a war, social tensions that are increasing because of the effects of displacement and tension in different neighborhoods. Lebanon is already a sectarianized country where these boundaries can shift quickly and can become very tense. But the point we don’t talk about is that civil wars are not the result of social tension. I mean, we never slip into a civil war. Wars, whether civil or not, are political decisions. And therefore, the question today is: Who is going to fund — I mean, yes, I’m not saying the war is impossible. Actually, it is very possible, a civil War. But the question is: Who’s going to fund it? Who’s going to back it politically at the regional level and at the international level? Who’s going to send arms? These are the questions that we need to answer, rather than thinking that wars are social explosions. They’re not. Revolutions are social explosions.
AMY GOODMAN: Earlier this week, at least 13 people, including a child, were killed, and about 60 others injured, in an Israeli airstrike near the Rafik Hariri University Hospital, Lebanon’s largest public medical center. At least 32 others were wounded in the attack, which caused major damage to the hospital. Separately, 50 medical workers and 15 patients were forced to evacuate from the Al-Sahel Hospital in southern Beirut Monday, after Israel’s military claimed without evidence it’s home to a secret underground Hezbollah bunker containing hundreds of millions of dollars in cash and gold. Doctors insisted there’s nothing hidden beneath the hospital and took reporters on a tour of its lower floors to disprove the claims. This is Alex Rossi, international correspondent for Sky News.
ALEX ROSSI: This is the Al-Sahel Hospital on the outskirts of Dahiyeh. Dahiyeh, of course, is a stronghold of Hezbollah. Now, we’re in the basement. This is — it’s alleged by the Israelis that this hospital is being used by Hezbollah as a way of storing gold and cash. And we’ve been invited in here. This tour has been in no way exhaustive. You can see there are lots of other press here, as well. But we haven’t been controlled in terms of what we can film or where we can point our camera. We’ve been allowed to open doors, move around. Now, there may be other areas of the hospital that we’ve not been taken to, but for all, you know, this looks like a hospital.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Alex Rossi, again, international correspondent for Sky News. If you could respond, Rima Majed, to what happened there and also talk about the U.S. State Department once again shoring up Israel in what it’s doing, the spokesperson Matt Miller saying, “We’ve seen footage that’s emerged over the course of the past two weeks of rockets and other military weapons held in civilian homes, so Israel does have a right to go after those legitimate targets”?
RIMA MAJED: Yes. I mean, the targeting of the Hariri Hospital was also very personal to me, because this is exactly where I grew up, actually. This is the neighborhood where I lived for several years. And it targeted civilians, mainly. All the other attacks are also targeting civilians. And this logic of — I mean, whether the German foreign minister’s logic of Israel having the right to target civilians, and now there’s a new logic of the right to target gold and money as a terrorist threat, is completely absurd. I mean, we’ve never seen — would this apply to Israel? Does Lebanon have the right to defend itself the way — using the same techniques and tactics that Israel uses? Of course not. I mean, this goes against every logic of protection of human rights, but also, I mean, just protection of civilians is basic here.
So, I think, I mean, what we’re seeing is a complete degeneration into a war that has no rules, that respects no international conventions, and that, you know, there’s one side in this war that has complete impunity. We’ve seen this over the past year, and it’s continuing. Israel is targeting civilians in most cases. I mean, what is the logic of targeting gold and money? If — I mean, let’s assume this is really what there is there: Why target it with a bomb? What is the logic of this? This is just terrorism. And this is what it should be called.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Rima Majed, if you could talk about the attacks, in fact, on financial associations Israel — sorry, the branches of a financial association reportedly linked to Hezbollah earlier this week, in fact, on Sunday? What is the Al-Qard al-Hassan Association, and why was it hit?
RIMA MAJED: I mean, it’s one of the financial institutions that are believed to be controlled by Hezbollah. It follows the same logic of, you know, the neoliberal turn of giving microfinance. So, this is not an aid institution. This is a bank that gives microfinance facilities.
What we have been seeing is that Israel is moving from the decapitation, which is continuing, of leaders, but there’s also very clear targeting of Hezbollah’s social institutions, whether hospitals, schools, banks, etc. So, the aim is probably to dismantle, and the target is not just Hezbollah as an organization, but it’s also, you know, its constituency, its people. And when I say its people or its constituencies, it doesn’t mean that these are Hezbollah fighters or members. These are just Lebanese civilians who have a political opinion that happens to be in support of that party. I mean, again, if we apply the logic on any other party, it would sound horrendous.
The fact that we are justifying — and, I mean, hearing the German foreign minister, who then, after saying what she said about justifying the right of Israel to kill civilians, then visiting Beirut, is really — I mean, the world today feels like the turn of the 20th century, I mean, the dark years of fascism. And it’s very alarming that this is how we are dealing with these wars and this is the logic with which we’re justifying the killing of some, but, of course, not others.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Rima Majed, finally, we just have a minute left. If you could talk about Security Council Resolution 1701? Amos Hochstein, who was just in the region, has said its implementation is the only way to end the war between Israel and Hezbollah.
RIMA MAJED: Yeah, I mean, Hochstein is — it’s interesting that the negotiator, you know, served in the Israeli offense — I mean, the IOF, I would call it — so has a clear side in this war. But, I mean, personally, I think this is a resolution that ended the 2006 war. At this point, I don’t think any of the parties, whether it’s Israel or Hezbollah — I mean, at this point, doesn’t matter what Hezbollah says, I mean, even if Hezbollah today says that they want to stop this war and they agree on everything, including 1701, which they have agreed on several times. I mean, just days before Nasrallah was killed, he had agreed on the implementation of 1701. I think at this point there is a plan that Israel will move on to implement, and that goes beyond what we’re hearing from these diplomats. That is a plan that is in line with the Abraham Accords, with changing the face of the Middle East. And unfortunately, it’s people like us who are paying the price.
AMY GOODMAN: Rima Majed, we want to thank you so much for being with us, assistant professor of sociology at the American University of Beirut, speaking to us from Beirut, Lebanon.
Coming up, Israel’s deadly campaign of starvation and forced expulsion in northern Gaza has entered its 20th day. We’ll go to Tel Aviv to speak with B’Tselem, the prominent Israeli human rights group, which described Israel’s siege as “ethnic cleansing.” Stay with us.
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AMY GOODMAN: “Sick of Myself” by Matthew Sweet, who recently had a debilitating stroke on tour, and fans are now raising funds for his recovery.
