This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Public health officials are decrying President-elect Trump for selecting Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to head the Department of Health and Human Services. Kennedy is one of the nation’s most prominent vaccine skeptics.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: There’s no vaccine that is, you know, safe and effective.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is an environmental attorney who’s been accused of spreading numerous public health conspiracy theories about vaccines and other issues. Kennedy has claimed HIV may not cause AIDS. He’s claimed chemicals in the nation’s water supply is leading to a rise in sexual dysphoria in kids. And he once said, quote, ”COVID-19 is targeted to attack Caucasians and Black people. The people who are most immune are Ashkenazi Jews and Chinese.”
If confirmed, Kennedy would head a sprawling agency that oversees drug, vaccine and food safety, as well as medical research. During his victory speech last week, Trump praised Kennedy, who had endorsed Trump after dropping his own independent presidential bid.
PRESIDENT–ELECT DONALD TRUMP: We can add a few names, like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He came in. And he’s going to help make America healthy again. … And now he’s a great guy, and he really means it. He wants to do some things, and we’re going to let him go to it.
AMY GOODMAN: Robert Weissman, co-president of Public Citizen, described Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as a, quote, “clear and present danger to the nation’s health.” Weissman said, quote, “Donald Trump’s bungling of public health policy during the Covid pandemic cost hundreds of thousands of lives. By appointing Kennedy as his Secretary of HHS, Trump is courting another, policy-driven public health catastrophe,” unquote.
But Kennedy’s nomination has been praised by others. The Democratic governor here in Colorado, Jared Polis, wrote on social media he was excited by Trump’s pick because of Kennedy’s calls to lower drug costs, eliminate pesticide-intensive agriculture and reduce Big Agriculture’s control of federal nutrition policy. Governor Polis wrote, quote, “He will face strong special interest opposition on these, but I look forward to partnering with him to truly make America healthy again,” unquote. Governor Polis’s office later released a statement clarifying his views, writing that the governor, quote, “definitely does not endorse actions that would lead to measles outbreaks and opposes unscientific propaganda that undermines confidence in the lifesaving impact of vaccines,” unquote.
We’re joined right now by Lawrence Gostin, professor of global health law at Georgetown University, where he’s the founding O’Neill chair in global health law and director of the O’Neill Institute, which has been designated a World Health Organization Collaborating Center for National and Global Health Law. He’s also the author of several books, including Global Health Security: A Blueprint for the Future. He’s joining us from Potomac, Maryland.
Professor Gostin, thanks for joining us again on Democracy Now! Your first response to hearing that President Trump has nominated RFK Jr. to be head of the Department of Health and Human Services?
LAWRENCE GOSTIN: Well, thanks for asking. I have been working in public health now since the AIDS epidemic of more than four decades ago. I can’t think of a darker time for public health in America and globally than now. And with the appointment of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to lead all of our nation’s esteemed scientific agencies, it really does make my heart sink.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Professor Gostin, could you elaborate on what those agencies are, what all they’re responsible for, and how much power Kennedy would have if he actually is confirmed by the Senate?
LAWRENCE GOSTIN: Yeah. You know, he’ll be the head of the Department of Health and Human Services, which covers all of our most venerable scientific agencies: the USFDA, the CDC, NIH — and the list goes on and on. He’ll also be responsible for our Medicare/Medicaid programs, where, basically, HHS has a portfolio that expands the entire length of health in America.
And this is the point. Those agencies set the gold standard for science and public health recommendations. If Kennedy were actually confirmed by the Senate, it would mean that the world’s most influential and well-funded anti-science skeptic and anti-vaccinationist would be the head of it, where he has no fidelity to truth, to science. And he spews out public, really, lies about vaccines, raw milk, ivermectin, water fluoridization. He will make America sick, certainly not healthier again.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Professor Gostin, in fact, it’s not just that he would make America sick; he would, in fact, potentially make the whole world sick, because the WHO and other health agencies around the world do rely on what the CDC says. If you could comment on that?
LAWRENCE GOSTIN: Yes, of course. I’ve been thinking a lot about that. You know, basically, agencies like the NIH that set treatment guidelines, the FDA, which approves drugs and vaccines, and CDC, which has public health guidelines and has a presence in 65 countries around the world, they rely on U.S. agencies. And once Trump and RFK Jr. poison the well of science and evidence, fomenting distrust in CDC and state and local health officials, this is a huge problem not just for the United States, for the world. I can tell you there’s great trepidation in Geneva, in Africa, Latin America, parts of Asia. And I hear it every single day. It really is a dark day for global public health, and particularly, for the United States, because if — I often ask this question, you know: Who would you rather make decisions about vaccines and drugs? Would it be career scientists at the FDA , NIH and CDC, or would it be Robert F. Kennedy Jr.? And simply to ask the question is to answer it.
AMY GOODMAN: So, Professor Gostin, I’m speaking to you from Colorado. And Jared Polis, certainly not known as a supporter of President Trump, the governor, has actually endorsed this choice. He wrote that Robert Kennedy “helped us defeat vaccine mandates in Colorado in 2019 and will help make America healthy again by shaking up HHS and FDA. I hope he leans into personal choice on vaccines rather than bans.” And he talks about, “I’m most optimistic about … taking on big pharma and the corporate ag oligopoly to improve our health. Before you mock him or disagree, I want to share with you” — and he goes on to some quotes.
LAWRENCE GOSTIN: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: So, I want to ask you about all of this, because the health of the nation is more than vaccines. But on the issue of vaccines, are you concerned? I mean, you have The Washington Post saying the nearly $2 trillion health agency oversees health insurance programs, including Medicare/Medicare and Affordable Care Act, and helps lead the response to natural disasters, etc. Could they not — could they stop insurance from covering vaccines, for example? But on the issue of the ag oligopoly, big business controlling agriculture, pesticides, make some distinctions here.
LAWRENCE GOSTIN: Yeah, thank you for asking that. Those are really great questions.
So, on vaccines, that’s the simple one, because he’s the world’s most influential, well-funded anti-vaxxer in the world, and he’s probably single-handedly responsible for thousands of preventable illnesses and deaths by fomenting distrust in what is really a public health miracle and what CDC has called the greatest public health tool of our lifetimes. And it is. So, he has, really, very little credibility. Yes, he could do great damage. For example, the CDC’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices makes recommendations about which vaccines under the ACA can be free and are effective. They make recommendations about school-based vaccinations, although those final decisions are taken by the states. And every single person on ACIP is going to be — their term is going to be up in the next four years. The HHS secretary appoints them. And so he can appoint vaccine skeptics. It could have a corrosive effect.
But let me talk about the importance of what Trump and Kennedy were talking about just the other day, which is chronic disease in America, what we in public health call noncommunicable diseases — diabetes, respiratory diseases, cardiovascular diseases and the like. These are really superfueled in the United States by what we call the standard American diet, which is SAD, S-A-D. And we have an explosion of overweight and obesity, particularly in our children, but also throughout the American population. If he were to do something like that, of course, we would all applaud him. But you can color me skeptic. A person who spent his life denying evidence, fomenting conspiracy theories, who’s been — who actually attacked, in a tweet just the other day, career scientists at the FDA, that’s not somebody I trust with food supply and nutrition in the United States. I’ve not seen one policy from him that’s based on science that would work. Yes, there are lots of things we can and we must do in this area. We should have much better nutritional labeling, which other countries around the world do far better than we do. We should have nutrition and health education in our schools far better. We should have healthy school lunches. And we should reduce the content of excess sugar, unhealthy fats and sodium in our products. Do you believe he would do any of those things? I’m very skeptical.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Professor Gostin, just finally, I just want to point out that Trump’s announcement came on the same day that the WHO and the CDC said that there’s been a 20% increase in measles cases worldwide. That’s in 2023. What chance do you think there is that the Senate will confirm him?
LAWRENCE GOSTIN: I hope zero to negligible. But at this point, I would have been shocked to see what America has turned into, and particularly in its attack on public health and science itself and career scientific professionals, that are really just, for very little money, trying to do their good work. And so, at this point, I can’t say. I don’t think — what I can say is this: Saying he’s unqualified for that position is a vast understatement. He’s the exact opposite of somebody who you would want that would have fidelity to science and public health.
AMY GOODMAN: And, of course, whether the Senate would approve him is one thing. Maybe they won’t be given the option with a recess appointment. And we’ll continue to follow that story, as well.
Lawrence Gostin, thanks so much for being with us, professor of global health law at Georgetown University, where he’s founding O’Neill chair in global health law, director of the O’Neill Institute, which has been designated as a WHO Collaborating Center for National and Global Health Law. Among his books, Global Health Security: A Blueprint for the Future.
This is Democracy Now! When we come back, we’ll look at President Trump’s pick for ambassador to Israel and to head the Pentagon. Stay with us.
