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AMY GOODMAN: I want to bring another guest into this conversation. To talk more about Trump’s January 6 pardons, we’re joined by former FBI special agent Mike German, who once worked undercover in white supremacist and militia groups. He’s a fellow with the Liberty and National Security Program at the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU Law School. He has a new book out. It’s called Policing White Supremacy: The Enemy Within. Mike German is joining us from San Diego.
Mike, welcome back to Democracy Now! As you listen to Jackson and we look at who was on those steps and inside the Capitol, particularly the violent people, on the one hand, you have 140 officers who were injured. You have five who died in the days that followed, two by suicide, another after being bear-gassed. You have the ones that were so seriously injured, like Fanone. And on the other side, you also had officers and sheriffs, a number of cops and military, even active-duty, were in that crowd. Talk about your findings.
MIKE GERMAN: Thanks for having me, Amy.
I think the pardons definitely send a message both to the far-right militant movement, that political violence against Trump’s enemies will be rewarded by the highest office in the land, and it also sends a message to law enforcement that there’s no value in investigating and prosecuting far-right violence. So, unfortunately, far-right violence has been something that law enforcement has rarely paid very much attention to. Even to this day, the FBI doesn’t track the number of violent white supremacist attacks that occur in this country or how many people are killed by those attacks. So, this will reinforce what has been a blind spot for the FBI and, generally, for law enforcement.
Obviously, there has been law enforcement support for these movements for some time. In fact, as an FBI agent, I received those warnings before I went undercover, that, “Hey, you have to be careful who you talk to in law enforcement about these cases, because there are sympathizers within law enforcement.” And nobody on a joint terrorism task force thought that was an odd warning. And likewise, those warnings have been provided since, documented in a 2006 intelligence report and the 2015 FBI counterterrorism policy guide, that warns agents investigating domestic terrorism cases against white supremacists that the subjects of their investigations often have active contacts with law enforcement. So this is a problem that’s long been understood within law enforcement, but we don’t have a national program designed to identify those officers and protect the public from them.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Mike German, so, is that the explanation for why, as you said, that white supremacist violence is deprioritized by the FBI and other government agencies? The reason is that they are complicit? There are people within the FBI and these agencies that are complicit with white supremacists?
MIKE GERMAN: Not just that, but the white supremacy infects all of our institutions. And that includes prosecutors’ offices, that includes judges, that includes corporate boards — everywhere we see racial disparities that impact communities of color negatively and privilege white and male communities. So, you know, it’s not just the law enforcement officers. If we saw on January 6th, there were a number of current and former law enforcement officers participating, but also current and former military people, members of state and local legislatures. So this is a pervasive problem.
But law enforcement is supposed to — is designed to protect the American public. And here we see President Trump clearly sending the message that these institutions designed to protect the American public are instead going to be used to protect his supporters and target his enemies.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: So, what’s your reading, Mike German, of what the effect of these pardons will be, not just on white supremacist violence, but violence in general, political violence in the U.S.?
MIKE GERMAN: And that’s really the big problem, is that it’s totally unpredictable. You know, once the highest office in the land gives a green light to political violence, it’s very hard to predict who is ultimately going to be harmed. And, you know, if you look at some of these recent attacks, including the attempted assassination of President Trump, these are people who are, according to the government’s intelligence that they’ve released, people who have been immersed in these conspiracy theories that Jackson was talking about. And even when I was in the movement, it was very hard to predict how any one piece of news would be interpreted in this group that has a very different sense of reality than the general public. So, it will be very disruptive within the far-right militant movement, as well, because these people who went to prison are now coming out, but others have rebuilt these organizations in their own image, and it’s going to be a very difficult period, I’m afraid.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to end with Jackson. Jackson, you’re in an undisclosed location now. Your mother and sister sided with your father. Only you and your boyfriend know exactly where you are. Your boyfriend, transgender. On his first day back in office, President Trump also moved to roll back protections for the transgender community. Do you think that LGBTQ and transgender issues also drives your father, in your fear of what he could do to you?
JACKSON REFFITT: I don’t know anymore. It’s been four years. You know, leading up and as he spiraled in 2020, it got worse and worse with his, you know, hate towards LGBTQ and queer-adjacent people. But seeing my own mother not be able to handle it as she also delved into this far-right agenda, that she pandered to and fed into, I can’t imagine how far my father has gotten. I’m terrified to even confront him about it, because I don’t know anymore, and I don’t want to be hurt like that.
I can handle, you know, their frustrations and their anger and how sad they are with me. I want to be there with them with that. I want to be able to work with them on that. But for something like that with my wonderful partner, my boyfriend, that is so hard to compromise with. You know, I can handle everything else. I can figure stuff out. I can distance. I can be safe. I have all those options. But when it comes to something like that, that bigoted behavior and language, that terrifies me. And as it’s gotten worse throughout the years, I have no idea where it lays now. And with something like that, I don’t know how to manage.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, Jackson, I want to thank you for being with us. You’re very brave to speak out from where you are. Jackson Reffitt, his father Guy Reffitt just pardoned by Donald Trump for his role in the January 6th insurrection. And, Mike, thank you so much. We hope to have you back on soon to talk more about your book and your findings, former FBI special agent, fellow at the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU Law School. Mike [German]’s new book is called Policing White Supremacy: The Enemy Within.
Coming up, a ceasefire is largely holding in Gaza, but Israel is intensifying attacks on the occupied West Bank. Back in 20 seconds.
