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AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to go to Reverend Munther Isaac, Palestinian Christian theologian, pastor at the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem. Last Christmas, he delivered a sermon titled “Christ Is Still in the Rubble.” His forthcoming book is titled Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza. If you can talk about the pope’s stand? As late as yesterday, hours before his death, he called for a ceasefire in Gaza, and, of course, in the last year, has gone way beyond that, Reverend Munther Isaac.
REV. MUNTHER ISAAC: Yes. This is, of course, a great loss to all humanity, and particularly to the Christian world, to the Catholic world. And we really lament and grieve his loss.
And I think that Pope Francis’s position on Palestine is just an extension of his theology and pastoral care in general, caring for the marginalized and victims of injustice. What he has done and exhibited and said throughout the world on Palestine was not the first time he spoke for the plight of Palestinians. I think no Palestinian will ever forget when Pope Francis, in 2014, stopped his car, went down, stepped down and prayed at the separation wall separating Jerusalem from Bethlehem — a moment that touched all of us and continued to speak to us for years.
And during the war on Gaza, I think he reflected two very important elements. First, his pastoral heart, his compassion. He spoke almost on a daily basis to the Church of the Holy Family in Gaza. He genuinely cared. He often even joked with them. He would pray with them, which reflect his heart of compassion. But I think his words also went beyond the standard “pray for peace” kind of language of many church leaders. And this is the distinction of Pope Francis, his courage, his always seeking to push things forward. He spoke, as we heard, on the war as terror, as cruelty.
And I think one of the most important things he has said was in a book in which he called for investigation as to whether what Israel has committed in Gaza amounts to a genocide. To me, this is extremely important, because it calls for accountability, and it shows that he’s more than just compassion and peace. He’s for justice. He’s for accountability. And I think this is what is — this is really what’s missing from the language of many faith leaders. He was exemplary in that.
AMY GOODMAN: Now, you are not a Catholic, but talk about his effect on Christians throughout the West Bank and Gaza, on Muslims, as well, as he pushed for more understanding of the Islamic faith, as he talked about migrants, and making this a centerpiece of what he said. It’s very interesting as he called for a ceasefire in Gaza yesterday, the same day that he met with the vice president of the United States for a number of seconds.
REV. MUNTHER ISAAC: Yes, it’s important to note here is a Lutheran pastor speaking about Pope Francis as a leader for all of us, because he truly and genuinely reflected, in my opinion, the ideals of the Gospel. He was a true follower of Jesus, and he exemplified, not just in words, but in actions, the teachings, the teachings of Jesus.
And as I said, he was truly beloved for us in Palestine because he made us feel recognized in a time when many tried to ignore and dehumanize Palestinians. The way he spoke about Arabs, Muslims, in general, I mean, even when there was attacks on the Christian community by some Islamic groups, he would make sure that we distinguish between, for example, what Islam says and what these fringe or radical groups do, warning from the dangers of Islamophobia. So, he truly understood the danger of the polemic language that exists in many of our politicians today, and tried to be a bridge builder and fight stereotypes, recognizing that extremism exists in all faith traditions. And for all of that, as I said, he is truly beloved by many who are in the fringe, marginalized, and including here, as well, in Palestine.
And I think you mentioning his meeting with Vice President Vance, I think it’s important, because in the coming days, and I’m sure we will hear so many good things said from politicians about Pope Francis, the very same politicians who would go on and ignore everything he taught and said, which is never new. I mean, we’ve seen the same happen with people like Desmond Tutu and others, for example, on the issue on apartheid in Palestine and so on. So, it’s going to be interesting to hear, to see hypocrisy manifested from the mouth of many politicians who will say all good things about Pope Francis, then go on contradicting many of the things he taught and sought to establish throughout his ministry, whether as a priest, as a bishop, archbishop, cardinal, and, of course, as pope.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to go right now to the pope talking about the cardinal. And then you can explain what happened.
POPE FRANCIS: [translated] Cardinal Re spoke about the war. Yesterday, they did not let the patriarch enter into Gaza, as they had promised, and yesterday children were bombed. This is cruelty. This is not war. I wanted to say this because it touches the heart.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you explain, Reverend Munther Isaac in Bethlehem, what took place last December?
REV. MUNTHER ISAAC: I think the pope was talking about the incident in which two Palestinian Christian women were shot and killed within the vicinity of the Church of the Holy Family in Gaza. When he said, you know, “This is the church. There are no militants there,” he clearly was in touch with the people in the church, who assured them that no one was in the church campus other than the Christian families who escaped. And so, he spoke with clarity, you know, condemning what happened and saying this is cruelty, this is terror, when two innocent women are killed by snipers in front — literally in front of the door of the church for no reason whatsoever. It shows that he recognized that this is not just, you know, as Israel always claimed, they’re targeting militants, or that militants hide behind civilians and so on. None of that happened when the churches were attacked. And I think what happened at the churches points to the reality all over Gaza, is that innocent civilians are targeted under the cover or under the justification that militants are hiding there, whereas in the church, clearly no militant was there.
And the words that the pope chose, I think, were extremely important, whether “cruelty,” whether “terror.” I think all of these describe the hell that exists right now in Gaza. And I really wish more faith leaders speak with this moral clarity describing what is happening right now in Gaza, rather than simply wishing for a ceasefire without calling things by name.
AMY GOODMAN: Reverend Munther Isaac, we want to thank you for joining us from Bethlehem. Reverend Isaac tweeted today, “I wonder: Will the millions who will mourn his death these coming days respect this wish of his? Will they care for Gazans and Palestinians the way he did?”
