This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to bring our next guest into this conversation. He’s back in Rome, Italy: Peter Isely. He is a survivor of sexual assault by a Catholic priest as a 13-year-old boy growing up in Wisconsin. Peter is one of the founders and global affairs chief of SNAP, Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests. SNAP’s open letter in response to the new pope, quote, “highlights the grim reality underpinning the College of Cardinals — many who voted in this conclave actively shielded abusers, and many who will be appointed to the curia under this papacy bear similar stains,” they write.
Peter Isely, can you talk about your organization’s very grave concerns about Cardinal Prevost being elected pope?
PETER ISELY: Yeah, and you can imagine how difficult this is for me to be sitting here, for survivors to — what they’re experiencing today, especially when survivors from Peru and some in the United States who were raped and sexually assaulted by Augustinians, the order that Prevost was provincial of and then global — head of the global order, what it felt like to see him walk out on that balcony, knowing that your family, you, your life has permanently changed because of how he has managed or mismanaged sexual abuse cases. It’s hard not to be a part of the Leo fan club right now. I’m pretty confident I’m the most unpopular person probably in Rome right now, and certainly on this panel.
But here are the facts, and this is why we were in Rome launching Conclave Watch. People need to know what the records on sexual abuse and cover-up are of these cardinals. And we filed a _ Vos estis_ complaint. That’s the official mechanism that you’re supposed to use when a bishop has evidence of covering up sex crimes. And in that filing, there is plenty of evidence — now, I’m not saying he’s guilty, but we’re saying it reaches well beyond probable cause that he covered up sex crimes as Augustinian provincial and as head of the Augustinian Order and then as a bishop in Peru from 2014 to 2023.
And the worst is a case that he was directly involved in, three sisters who were sexually assaulted and raped by two priests in his diocese. They were, like, 6 and 7 years old. The statute of limitations in Peru for child sex crimes is four years. So, they didn’t go to the police by — you know, 9 years old, they didn’t go to the police. But they did it, and one of them admitted it. He admitted to the church that he committed these heinous, awful crimes against these girls. And what Prevost did with that information is that he didn’t launch an — give it to justice officials, say, in Peru to find out if there’s any possibility of prosecution. He took that criminal evidence, like they do all around the world, and he shipped it via diplomatic pouch over here to the Vatican over here. What are they doing with it? And that case was closed because of the civil statute in Peru. The man has sexually assaulted children. They were left in ministry. These victims had to go public. Imagine the courage of these three women, women that didn’t get to read the Gospel today or whatever, what happened over there, but these three women raped and sexually assaulted by two Peruvian priests. Prevost — I’m sorry, I hate saying this — I hate saying this —
AMY GOODMAN: I want to, Peter —
PETER ISELY: — the evidence is that he covered up these crimes.
AMY GOODMAN: Peter, I wanted to go to a clip —
PETER ISELY: Who’s sitting right now in the Augustinian headquarters, by the way?
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to go to a clip, by the way.
PETER ISELY: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: This recent scrutiny centering around Cardinal Robert Prevost’s alleged awareness and mishandling of accusations of sex abuse against two priests, when Prevost, now the pope, was the archbishop, as you described, in Peru. This is a clip of Ana María Quispe, a Peruvian woman, who you were talking about, who accused the two priests, Eleuterio Vásquez and Ricardo Yesquén, of sexual abuse. In an interview with the Peruvian media in 2023, she said the abuse started when she was 9 years old.
ANA MARÍA QUISPE: [translated] What happened to me was around 2007. At the time, the priests would invite us to celebrations, to go on missions, to pray the Rosary with him or to Mass. He would insist on having youth go on missions with him to rural regions in the mountains. After so much insistence, my parents agreed, because the priests and I were really close. When it was time to go to bed, he ended up sleeping with me. It was something I didn’t expect, and it was very uncomfortable. … In regards to Father Ricardo Yesquén, I attended a youth missionary group with him. … I was standing in line to greet him when he kissed me. He sat me on top of his legs, and he kissed me.
AMY GOODMAN: So, there is the clip of Ana María Quispe, the Peruvian woman accusing two priests of sexual abuse. If you can talk further, Peter, as you sit there in Rome, what your demands are at this point, and if you’ve ever spoken to the current pope, to Pope Leo XIV?
PETER ISELY: No, I’ve never spoken to him. I don’t know if any survivor has spoken to him. He hasn’t tweeted anything from survivors, as far as I know.
I mean, here’s what we wanted from him. Here’s what he needs to do. One, he needs to pass not a policy, a law, a canon law — that’s what governs the Catholic Church — a zero-tolerance law. And what that means is simple. Any cleric, any priest, known, determined — known, determined, like these priests were known and determined — to have committed acts of sexual abuse, violence, rape, assault against a child will be permanently removed from the Catholic priesthood. He can no longer be a priest. He can’t function as a priest. He can’t represent himself as a priest. That zero tolerance right now around the world. You can be a bishop, you can have priests — and they know of these priests — who have raped and sexually assaulted children, and you can stay in the ministry, you can transfer them to new assignments, and that’s perfectly legal under this church law.
Secondly, he needs to tell us how he has handled these cases. There needs to be an independent body, not hired by the church, not hired by him, that’s going to look into the abuse archives that he’s involved with, so when he was Augustinian provincial, when he was head of the Augustinian Order. Right now we’re in the Augustinian headquarters. Those files might be right here. They might be, like, three floors down from me. Those need to be reviewed, what cases did he handle, because every case of an Augustinian during that time of rape and sexual assault — and there were cases — went to him, he was responsible for. And in Peru, all that time in Peru, every case in his diocese, he was responsible for. That needs to be examined. He needs to be transparent. He needs to be honest. Let’s open the archives and see what he’s done. Even with the case, by the way, of this victim, her other two sisters then came forward with her. It’s not just her. It’s her and her two sisters, for God’s sake. Let’s see the report he sent to Rome that has led to the closing of this case.
And then, finally, the last job he had was head of the Dicastery of Bishops. All the reports of bishops that have covered up sex crimes, guess where they’re supposed to go. Guess where Vos estis is supposed to be instituted. Over there with him. So, he knows of all the — any reports of bishops that have covered up sex crimes, or cardinals. Those files are over there. So, he needs to open up those archives, because, believe me, we want to trust him.
Right now there is no indication, when it comes to this, that he can be trusted. I am the last person that wants to say this. Do you know how difficult this is for me to say, with all the praise and adulation and glory? I agree with many of the positions that the other two guests talked about. I agree with that. But just because I criticize Pope Leo, and just because we had the same problem with Francis covering up sex crimes, that does not make us JD Vance, that doesn’t make us conservatives, because, oh God, you know, we’re criticizing Pope Leo. And I’m sorry to get so worked up about this, but it is extraordinarily difficult to be in these conversations right now.
JAMES V. GRIMALDI: Can I respond, Amy?
AMY GOODMAN: Yes, James Grimaldi, editor of National Catholic Reporter, who’s sitting next to Peter Isely in the studio in Rome, if you could respond?
JAMES V. GRIMALDI: Yeah. First, I want to say that there is no media organization in the world that has done more to expose sexual abuse by priests than the National Catholic Reporter. That’s number one. We gave our database of abusers to SNAP and Bishop Accountability. That’s why they have a database. So I just wanted to make that point.
Second, I’m from Missouri, Amy. You’ve got to show me. And I think Peter’s a nice man, like Peter a lot. But he’s conflated a number of things. The cases that he’s talking about are horrific. They’re awful. Those priests should be banished from the Catholic Church. We agree on that. No question whatsoever. The question that I don’t have, the evidence that I don’t have — and when I met Peter the other night, I asked him to send it to me. And, in fact, I emailed him the next day, and I said, “Give me that evidence on Prevost,” because he was on our short list. We thought he could become the next pope. And I didn’t get a reply. Now, he’s here in Rome. I didn’t have his card. I sent it through their website. So, it could be that for whatever happened and a million things going on — and I’m running a team of seven people — but I’m still eager to see the evidence, because you’ve got to show me that his fingerprints are on a cover-up, and we don’t have that.
Third, I agree with a lot that he just said. And we don’t know if Pope Leo is going to agree or not. I hope he does, because I am a lifelong, as you know, Amy, after having exposed Jack Abramoff, the corrupt lobbyist — I’m all in favor of transparency and openness. And Francis made some steps in that direction. Did he go far enough? No. Could Pope Leo go further? Yes. You know, I’m with Peter. Let’s go downstairs and look for the archives. I love archives. If those archives are here, they should open them up. I want to see exactly what happened. So, all of the things he’s talking about — and the canon law change, which he mentioned to me the other night, I think that’s a great idea. We have no evidence yet that he isn’t going to do that.
And I agree with our priest friend that we had on a minute ago. You know, something he said 13 years ago, how do we know it hasn’t changed? I mean, people’s minds change. As you know, Amy, as you know very well, Amy Coney Barrett allegedly told Senator Susan Collins she would not overturn Roe v. Wade because she believed in stare decisis. How did that work out? Well, people change their minds. And we don’t know what’s going to happen with Pope Leo. So, I would say wait and see. Don’t listen to what they say. Watch what they do.
AMY GOODMAN: So, I’m going to give you right there, Peter —
PETER ISELY: Let me respond.
AMY GOODMAN: — the last 30 seconds, and then to Father Bryan Massingale for a final comment here. But what I want to do is have the two of you back on as you review the evidence, because this is obviously an ongoing conversation, Peter.
PETER ISELY: Did you hear the victim talking? They did an open letter. Do you know what guts it took to put their names on a letter that they released to the public with their names on it? They’re the ones that said they went to Prevost. Let’s see the report Prevost sent. I am talking and believing the victims. Their accounts are completely consistent. There are two —
JAMES V. GRIMALDI: I believe the victims, too.
PETER ISELY: Please let me finish, sir, OK? And you never sent me the email.
JAMES V. GRIMALDI: I did.
PETER ISELY: OK, fine. OK, let me finish, please. And the thing is, please respect the fact, whether you disagree with me or not, that I am a survivor of rape and sexual assault by a priest in the Catholic Church. And what I’m thinking about is that young lady in Peru and her sisters and what they are going through right now, seeing the praise and adulation of this man. He covered up those crimes in Peru. There’s plenty of evidence for an investigation.
He did it in Chicago. This is in court records. He put two priests in residences, one next to a high school, pedophile priest, one next to an elementary school, pedophile priest. He didn’t even tell the parents of those children or the principal of that school, “I’ve got a pedophile priest like 1,000 feet away from your school.” OK? Didn’t do any of that. So, that’s not the care of children.
And I’ll tell you, finally, he was out on that balcony. Did you hear one word to victims of sexual crimes and violence in the Catholic Church? All about peace. Peace is about ending violence. And so, the violence he can end — I don’t know what he can do about the Ukraine and anything else, but he can end the sexual violence in the church, pass said zero-tolerance now law. He knows what it is. It’s been drafted. Pass it. And let’s see the archives. There’s plenty of evidence. Maybe you can ask him. I mean, you seem to be good friends with him. Let’s go get those archives.
JAMES V. GRIMALDI: I’ve never — I’ve never met him. I want to see your evidence. JGrimaldi —
PETER ISELY: I’ve said it. Go up — go to — go —
JAMES V. GRIMALDI: I’m going to give you my email, Peter.
PETER ISELY: You said you did that before. Go to —
JAMES V. GRIMALDI: JGrimaldi@ncronline.org.
PETER ISELY: OK. OK, great, fine.
JAMES V. GRIMALDI: JGrimaldi@ncronline.org.
PETER ISELY: I know NCR. [inaudible]
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to have to leave it there, but we’re going to —
PETER ISELY: OK, let’s — OK, all right.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to have to leave it there, but we’re going to continue this conversation, because it’s clearly —
PETER ISELY: Please.
AMY GOODMAN: — an absolutely critical one. I want to thank Peter Isely, as the two of you also pat each other on the back there. You’re clearly both interested in the investigation of this and getting to the bottom of it.
PETER ISELY: James, please. OK?
AMY GOODMAN: Peter Isely is the survivor of sexual assault by a Catholic priest when he was growing up in Wisconsin, and the founder, one of the founders of SNAP, the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests. And I also want to thank James Grimaldi, executive editor of the National Catholic Reporter. We have a date to put the two of you back on the show. But I want to get a final comment from our guest here in New York. You may not be in Rome, but you have a lot to say about this. As we look at the future of the new pope, Reverend Bryan Massingale, what do you want to see?
FATHER BRYAN MASSINGALE: I guess I want to see a couple things. I want the pope to be a voice for the voiceless. What we see around the world and in our own country is rising intolerance, the scapegoating of the migrant and the immigrant. We are seeing the erasure of trans people from our public lives. We’re seeing the revision of our histories, when we try to edit Harriet Tubman out of the Underground Railroad, all in the name of DEI. And this is only in this country. We know that populist nationalisms are increasing around the world. We need this pope to be a voice for the voiceless.
We also need the pope to be a moral conscience for the world. There are so few leaders of global — global leaders of moral integrity. And I was pleased to see that he was taking on JD Vance. But we need him to step into that void of moral and ethical leadership that we have in our world right now.
And we also need the pope to be a prophet of hope in these uncertain times. We haven’t talked about climate change. And I think one of the things that being from Peru — and he sees that climate change is threatening the existence of entire island nations around the world. We’re seeing people in our own country that are wrestling with growing uncertainty, and we see how that uncertainty is being weaponized by public leaders. We need someone who can be an articulate voice of hope.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you so much for being with us, Father Bryan Massingale, professor of theological and social ethics at Fordham University here in New York, recent article for the monthly Catholic magazine America headlined “Pope Francis and the future of Catholic moral theology.” We will link to that.
When we come back, we’ll also go to Memphis, where a jury has acquitted three former Memphis police officers in the killing of Tyre Nichols, and hear from a woman in Gaza as we approach Mother’s Day.
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AMY GOODMAN: “Tell Me How Long Blues” by the legendary singer and activist Barbara Dane in our Democracy Now! studio.
