This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Akbar, I wanted to follow that up on Iran. The willingness of President Trump to engage in negotiations over uranium enrichment with Iran, I’m sure that Netanyahu and the current Israeli government is not happy with this.
AKBAR SHAHID AHMED: They’re certainly not thrilled, Juan. Their preference would have been for a U.S. and Israeli-backed military strike by now — in fact, prior to now. Their argument is, we, as Israel, in this kind of post-October 7th moment, in our retaliatory campaign across the region, have weakened Iran, right? They’ve weakened the pro-Iran militia in Lebanon, Hezbollah. They’ve, in fact, even weakened Iran’s own air defenses. So, the argument from Netanyahu and his government is, “Let us use this moment to take a strike against Iran, knock it out for good.” The counterargument to that is, of course, unintended consequences of a major war, and also the technical nuclear expertise doesn’t go away. So, the Trump administration is saying, “Let’s try to reach a deal.” And they have stuck by that, despite facing criticism.
What’s kind of unclear still is how much expertise they’ll develop. These are very hard deals to negotiate. It’s worth remembering President Trump is in this situation because he abandoned the deal that the Obama administration had achieved — right? — through extreme negotiation and technical expertise. The Trump team hasn’t yet shown they kind of have that level of professionalism, and also they haven’t really made clear how much they’re willing to give up to Iran. Iran, given that it felt burned by the U.S., which did abandon the previous nuclear deal, which Iran was complying with — Iran has said, “We want a little more. We want more guarantees to know this will be permanent. This will bring us the sanctions relief in exchange for nuclear limitations.” And I think the Trump administration needs to kind of demonstrate that, especially in the weeks ahead. There is a looming deadline again, because there are U.N. sanctions on Iran that will go back into place starting in July. So, if there isn’t some kind of temporary deal by then, all of this diplomacy by the Trump administration will get much, much harder and less likely to deliver.
AMY GOODMAN: So, continuing on Iran, Sarah Leah Whitson, a few days ago, this whole idea being floated — this is a piece from The New York Times, “Can Trump Rename the Persian Gulf?” “His suggestion to call the body of water the ‘Arabian Gulf’ has apparently done the impossible: Unite Iranians.” But if you can talk further about what this means for U.S.-Iran relations? But then, also, let’s go back to Qatar and talk more about what exactly Qatar wants at this point. I wanted to bring in that clip — it’s like three seconds — of Trump defending taking that $400 million “flying palace.” This is what he said to a reporter.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: It’s not a gift to me. It’s a gift to the Department of Defense.
AMY GOODMAN: “It’s not a gift to me. It’s a gift to the Department of Defense.” And, of course, when he leaves, it’s going to go to him, or to go to the Trump presidential library, which means the U.S. will pour in hundreds of millions of dollars to refurbish it, but then it goes to Trump, and these new Boeing planes, supposedly, will be the new U.S. Air Force One. But what Qatar wants from this? So, first Iran, then Qatar.
SARAH LEAH WHITSON: Well, with Iran, obviously, President Trump made clear, even when he was a candidate, that his goal was to reach a deal with Iran. And he even talked about lifting sanctions on Iran, which, interestingly, Kamala Harris criticized and condemned. So, I think Trump has made clear his willingness to engage in negotiations with Iran, to lift sanctions, to reach a nuclear deal, from the get-go. I think Israel assumed they would be able to curb that and instead get war on Iran. That’s failed. Very interesting that Iran has just proposed a joint nuclear development, Iranian enrichment, with the UAE and with Saudi Arabia, something that would have been unthinkable, but would certainly sweeten the consideration of what could be a civilian power, nuclear power for the entire region, and brings these countries closer together. And I think that’s a good thing. Anything that reduces the temperature of war in this region is a good thing.
In terms of Qatar, Qatar depends on the United States for military protection. This $400 million plane is protection money, and it’s directly protection money to Trump. But I don’t think, even though the glaring flying machine that is an advertisement for Qatar is particularly glaring, I don’t think we can take it out of the context of massive foreign influence, expanding foreign influence, the purchase of influence with money, with Gulf money. We have long had a U.S. foreign policy that has been controlled by money, including, in particular, pro-Israel money, that has seeped into American politics, Democrats and Republicans. And now the Gulf states are in on the game, in on the game more crudely and nakedly than ever before, as this plane signifies. And they’re certainly outspending AIPAC, which is something that’s making AIPAC and the pro-Israel supporters panic. But this, I think, represents the most glaring example of what has become the corruption of the U.S. political system, not just by domestic lobbying interests, but by foreign lobbying interests. So, I think, in fact, all of this is quite depressing and disheartening, because they are predicated on short-term gains, short-term financial gains, not just for President Trump, but for the entire establishment.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Sarah, I wanted to ask you about Saudi Arabia. In a departure from his previous stance, Trump has suggested that Saudi Arabia will join the so-called Abraham Accords and forge relations with Israel, quote, “in its own time.” The significance of this?
SARAH LEAH WHITSON: Well, the significance of this is that Trump has successfully delinked both the development of a civilian nuclear plant, as well as this new trade deal. And I’m expecting a defense agreement, a defense cooperation agreement, that will come from any normalization with Israel. Whereas Biden had suggested that all of these things would be dependent on Saudi Arabia normalizing with Israel, that’s off the table.
But it’s important to note that it’s off the table because of Israel’s own self-sabotage. It was really only Netanyahu and Israel who were the primary reasons there is no normalization with Saudi Arabia right now. And the Trump administration has now clearly indicated that they are going to proceed on their business arrangements and military arrangements with Saudi Arabia regardless of its normalization with Israel. This is one of the greatest acts of political self-sabotage that we’ve seen in the region for a while, and it’s pretty remarkable how close Israel was to normalizing with Saudi Arabia, but torpedoed that with its own fanatical, maniacal obsession with its genocide in Gaza.
AMY GOODMAN: President Trump, in talking to Bob Woodward, talked about how he saved the — rhymes with glass — of Mohammed bin Salman when it came to Khashoggi. You mentioned Khashoggi at the beginning, the founder of DAWN, your organization. But for people who may not remember what happened, if you can talk about that and the significance of Trump’s very close relationship with the crown prince now, even as he said to Bob Woodward, “I saved that guy’s —.”
SARAH LEAH WHITSON: Well, that was a rare moment of clarity and honesty from President Trump, telling us, letting us know how he saved Mohammed bin Salman from global accountability, from judicial accountability, from complete ostracism, with his crime that shook the world, which was the targeted kidnapping and assassination of a U.S. resident, Jamal Khashoggi, who had been writing critical columns about Mohammed bin Salman and Saudi Arabia in The Washington Post, but also founding and launching an organization that was aimed at reshaping U.S. policy with Saudi Arabia and the region, promoting democracy and human rights in the region.
After this murder, I mean, we know that the CIA was surveilling the WhatsApp communications between Mohammed bin Salman and his primary henchman, Saud al-Qahtani, both before, during and after the murder of Khashoggi at the Istanbul Consulate, the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul. And he was caught red-handed. The Biden administration revealed and released the CIA’s assessment that, in fact, Mohammed bin Salman ordered the murder of Khashoggi. But, of course, Biden capitulated on every front, going so far as to grant Mohammed bin Salman immunity from prosecution, though he is not the head of state of Saudi Arabia, because King Salman is still the head of state. So there was a complete pivot by the Biden administration, originally promising accountability for Saudi Arabia and then transforming into the fist bump and close ties with Saudi Arabia.
So, this is something that President Trump continues to have and hold over Mohammed bin Salman’s head. They can release those messages showing Mohammed bin Salman’s complicity in the murder of Khashoggi. I’m sure there are other secrets of Mohammed bin Salman’s that the United States and the CIA has and will continue to lord over him. But right now President Trump is focused on deal making with Mohammed bin Salman.
AMY GOODMAN: Where’s Khashoggi’s body?
SARAH LEAH WHITSON: We don’t know. One would think that, at minimum —
AMY GOODMAN: Killed in the Istanbul Embassy.
SARAH LEAH WHITSON: Killed in the Istanbul Embassy, reportedly, either burned —
AMY GOODMAN: Of Saudi Arabia.
SARAH LEAH WHITSON: The Consulate of Saudi Arabia in Istanbul. Reportedly, his remains may have been disposed of in an incinerator at the premises or removed out of the premises and taken to a car wash to be disposed of. We don’t really know. Saudi Arabia has never told us what they did with Jamal’s remains. One would think they would have the dignity and respect to at least allow this man to have a proper burial, but that is not something we can hope for.
And I want to remind people that Mohammed bin Salman may seem a little bit reasonable right now amidst really the complete insanity of Israel in terms of the genocide in Gaza, but Mohammed bin Salman himself is a volatile, unpredictable sociopath who continues to detain and imprison the mildest of critics in his country, who continued a seven-year senseless war in Yemen, resulting in over 300,000 deaths. And, of course, not only did he murder Jamal Khashoggi in cold blood, but targeted and attempted to kill several other critics of his regime who live abroad, including in the United Kingdom, including in Canada, opening up, really, a field day of efforts of targeted assassinations.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Sarah, Sarah, I wanted to ask you: The prospect of a Saudi-U.S. security agreement with, as you mentioned, the leader that Saudi Arabia has right now, the crown prince? The significance of it? And does Saudi — why does Saudi Arabia even need it, given the close alliance it already has with the U.S.?
SARAH LEAH WHITSON: Right. So, Saudi Arabia has been demanding a bilateral security agreement, treaty-level guarantees and protection from the United States, for a while, basically to immunize themselves from the herky-jerky of a new administration that comes in threatening to reshape its ties to Saudi Arabia. And remember, President Biden said he was going to cut all military sales to Saudi Arabia in the wake of its atrocities in Yemen and the murder of Khashoggi. So they want to immunize themselves from the back-and-forth of U.S. politics by having this defense agreement.
Interestingly, the White House’s announcement of its meetings in Saudi Arabia, the $600 billion in promised investments — which let’s see whether or not they materialize and how quickly they materialize — had no mention of a security agreement, no mention of U.S. security commitments to Saudi Arabia. I’m pretty certain that these things are going to come. I don’t think Saudi Arabia is going to allow the United States to develop this civilian nuclear plant for free. China has been willing to do it, and they’ve been willing to offer the deal to China. Saudi Arabia wants something back, and it remains what the United States has to offer it, which is military and political protection.
AMY GOODMAN: We just have 30 seconds, but, Akbar Shahid Ahmed, I want to end where we started today’s show with our headlines, and that is in Gaza, the horror that is taking place there, the intensification of Israel’s attacks right now on Gaza, the starvation, the killings, the airstrikes. And you’re writing a book on what’s happened in Gaza. Your final thoughts on where this could all lead? I mean, if President Trump — I mean, the number of negotiations he’s engaged with, coming to a ceasefire between India and Pakistan, with the Houthis, recognizing Syria — if he stopped arms sales to Israel right now, there would have to be a ceasefire, because Netanyahu could not proceed without those weapons.
AKBAR SHAHID AHMED: I think, Amy, there’s some hope of that. But fundamentally, I think it’s so important to remember that President Trump has show a really clear antipathy towards Palestinians, fundamentally, right? These are not people who have something to offer him the same way that wealthy Gulf Arabs or others in the region do, or Iran, through a kind of preventing a war lens. So, I think that while there’s some hope and expectation of that, my conversations with people, talking to the White House, hoping for something meaningful on Gaza, it’s pretty low right now. I think there’s a sense that there might be a fig leaf, something that says, “Here’s a U.S. plan to stop the fighting for a while,” but that would really involve a really kind of pro-Israeli approach that humanitarian organizations are really worried about, would not necessarily help actual aid reach Gazans, and, I think, could very easily fall apart. So, right now there doesn’t seem to be that interest and that deep expertise to deliver for Gaza, even though President Trump has this desire to be a Nobel Peace Prize laureate. But that may change, like everything in this administration, of course.
AMY GOODMAN: Akbar Shahid Ahmed, we want to thank you for being with us, HuffPost senior diplomatic correspondent, speaking to us from D.C. And thank you to Sarah Leah Whitson, the executive director of DAWN.
When we come back, we go a Salvadoran journalist who’s had to flee El Salvador along with his other colleagues from the news outlet El Faro, after Salvadoran President Nayib Bukele threatened to arrest them for exposing how Bukele made secret deals with Salvadoran gangs. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Silvio Rodríguez performing in Central Park here in New York in 2017.
