This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We begin today’s show in Israel, where the family members of the 20 remaining released hostages are welcoming their loved ones home.
On Monday, as President Trump addressed the Israeli Knesset, a group of leftist Israeli lawmakers briefly interrupted his speech, shouting at President Trump and waving signs that said “Recognize Palestine.”
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Everybody loves Steve, and they respect him, and they somehow can relate to him. I’ve known him for many years, and I’ve seen it over — over and over again.
KNESSET CHAIR: [speaking in Hebrew]
KNESSET MEMBERS: Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump! Trump!
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: That was very efficient.
AMY GOODMAN: The two lawmakers were Ayman Odeh and Ofer Cassif. They’re members of the Hadash-Ta’al alliance. Footage shows professor Rashid Khalidi’s book, The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine, resting on MK — that’s member of Knesset — Cassif’s desk as he’s sitting before being ousted. He’ll join us in a minute. After the two lawmakers were expelled from the Knesset, the Hadash-Ta’al head, Ayman Odeh, shared this message.
AYMAN ODEH: I was kicked out of the Knesset for raising the simplest demand, one of the whole international community agrees on: Recognize the state of Palestine. Recognize the simple truth: There are two peoples here, and no one is going anywhere.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s the Palestinian member of the parliament, Ayman Odeh.
We’re joined now by Ofer Cassif, a Jewish Israeli member of the Knesset and the leftist Hadash-Ta’al coalition.
Welcome back to Democracy Now!, sir. If you can start off by describing exactly what happened? You have for the first time President Trump addressing the Israeli Knesset, before taking off for Egypt, where he signed the ceasefire deal. Talk about what you did.
OFER CASSIF: Well, first of all, thank you for having me.
Yesterday, there was a disgusting display of flattery and personality cult by two megalomaniacs who are hungry for power and blood. That’s the main bond between Netanyahu and Trump. And we used this opportunity, which I dare say, or I would like to say, that, luckily, doesn’t happen too often, that someone like Trump attends the Knesset, and we used it to display our signs calling for the recognition of the state of Palestine.
This was a minimum — and, I would say, even polite — protest against the policy of mainly the government of Israel, the genocidal government of Israel, the government that sacrificed the Israeli hostages and the even Israeli soldiers on the altar of a messianic, crazy ideas. And all of that was taking place under the auspices of the governments of the United States, in plural — Biden and, later on, Trump. And this was our protest against the policy that both share. That’s the reason we did it.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Ofer Cassif, I wanted to ask you the — there’s been much made here in the United States of Trump’s initiative to create this peace plan. But to what degree do you feel what happened in the weeks before, especially at the U.N. General Assembly, as one U.S. ally after another — Canada, Australia, the United Kingdom, France, Portugal — recognized the state of Palestine — what impact do you think that had on pushing forward this ceasefire?
OFER CASSIF: First of all, I totally agree, if that’s what you wanted to imply, that the main reason for the change in President Trump’s policy towards the genocide in Gaza is the change — are the changes that have been occurring throughout the globe. First of all, it’s the huge demonstrations of different peoples across the globe, in Europe, in America, in Australia, in East Asia, etc., etc., millions of people, of good people, of peace activists. People were terrified by the pictures from what was going on in Gaza. Those demonstrations, for sure, influenced, had their impact on Trump. And same about those leaders, like Sánchez in Spain or Petro in Colombia and others. There’s no doubt that if we should thank someone for the end, for ending the genocide and releasing the Israeli hostages, it’s not Trump, let alone Netanyahu. It is the demonstrations, that I mentioned, and some of the leaders in the — of different countries in the world.
And the proof is that a couple of days ago, President Trump told Prime Minister Netanyahu — and I quote, almost word by word — “Israel cannot stand against the whole world.” Why did he say that? He said so specifically because he was witnessing those demonstrations and change of mood, including the recognition by 150 states, recognition of the state of Palestine, and the two-state solution. So, no doubt that that was the main impact on Trump. Alas, he still hasn’t gone enough — far enough to say explicitly that the two-state solution and the liberation of the Palestinian people are a must. And I hope that he will.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And what is your sense now of the impact on Israeli society and on your democracy of this peace plan, and the fate of Netanyahu in the future?
OFER CASSIF: First of all, if I may refer to what you said about Israel as a democracy, it pops out to my mind, you know, something that Mahatma Gandhi said. He was asked once what he thought about British civilization, and he said, “I think it’s a wonderful idea.” So, if you ask me what I think about the Israeli democracy, I would answer the same: I think it’s a wonderful idea. Unfortunately, we are not there yet. That’s not a democracy. But perhaps that’s for another chat.
But the influence of the change in the international atmosphere does influence the public discourse within Israel, still too little and too late, but it’s better than nothing and never. You could see that throughout the demonstrations in the last two years against the so-called war, which I prefer to call a genocide, to the demonstrations that called to release the hostages by sealing a deal that will end the genocide. You could see throughout those two years, and we participated in those demonstrations all the time, since the beginning.
Within those demonstrations, there were two main voices. One voice focused on the fate of the Israeli hostages and soldiers and totally ignored the fate of the Palestinians. The other voice, which we led and was in the beginning in a tiny minority, said that we do, of course, care a lot and want to release the hostages and stop the bloodshed of Israeli soldiers, too, but, obviously, we also emphasized the terrible death toll and destruction, etc., in Gaza and of Palestinians. We were, in the beginning, quite isolated and marginalized, sometimes even physically attacked. But you could see that throughout, as time went by, we began to gain more and more support. So, towards the end, we, I guess, constituted perhaps 20-30% of the demonstrators. So, that, of course, shows that the public discourse and the public opinion within Israel did shift.
You could also see that in different organizations from below, so to speak, by workers, you know, social workers, physicians, professors, teachers, artists and the writers, who began to raise a voice in the last few months against the genocide in Gaza, using the term “genocide” clearly and explicitly, like the very famous writer David Grossman did in an interview to La Repubblica, an Italian newspaper. And no less importantly is that no less than 600 ex-generals in the so-called Israeli security services also signed a petition in which they referred to the ongoing situation in Gaza as ethnic cleansing and war crimes and called to stop that. So, you could see a change there in the public discourse and in the public opinion in Israel.
And, of course, as the demonstrations in the world shift — also grew, it also influenced some of the Israeli discourse. So, in the end, you could see this kind of influence of the international community on the Israeli public.
AMY GOODMAN: During his address to the Knesset Monday, President Trump suggested Netanyahu should be pardoned on corruption charges. This is what he said.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Hey, I have an idea. Mr. President, why don’t you give him a pardon? Give him a pardon. You know, whether we like it or not, this has been one of the greatest wartime presidents. This is one — been one of the greatest wartime presidents. And cigars and champagne, who the hell cares about that?
AMY GOODMAN: So, that’s President Trump calling for Netanyahu to be pardoned. Can you talk about the significance of this, Ofer Cassif? And for people to understand, many believe that he extended the assault on Gaza to extend his own trial, to put off the end of that trial. And we’re not even talking here about the charges in the international court of crimes against humanity.
OFER CASSIF: Absolutely, there’s no doubt about it. But we should add to that that Netanyahu is not alone. If you put the all blame on Netanyahu, we miss a great deal of others who are totally blamed for the carnage that took place in Gaza and the sacrifice of the Israeli hostages, as well. Those are combined through — you know, totally, and there’s no way to distinguish between them.
So, Netanyahu, on the one hand, is interested only in his own good, just like Trump. I mean, those two psychopaths are good friends. It’s not a coincidence. One criminal endorses the other criminal, and whether we are talking about crimes of corruption or other crimes, including crimes against humanity or war crimes, etc., etc. So, as far as Netanyahu himself is concerned, from the very beginning, he was interested in doing whatever possible to stay in power, and, by that, to refrain from being behind bars. That’s his only interest. He doesn’t care about the well-being of the Israelis, including the hostages, and obviously let alone the well-being of Palestinians.
And because of that, he formed a coalition and a government that in the past he himself refused to form, because he knows exactly who we are dealing with. We are dealing with messianic bigots. We are dealing with little fascists. But Netanyahu decided to join forces with them, to add them, and to base his government and coalition on them, not only, by the way, in the sense of collaborating with bigots like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich — that is to say, to another parties — but to change the Likud party from within. Let’s not forget that in the last few years, Netanyahu transformed totally the Likud party. The Likud party, which was never my cup of tea, but the Likud party had, you know, serious politicians, people with values, which I do not share, which I object, but still with values and some respect and commitment to democratic rules of the game. What Netanyahu did, once he understood that he may find himself in prison, is to get rid of those people and to substitute them and add others who are messianic and bigots and racists, no less than Smotrich, Ben-Gvir and their allies.
So, all together, we can see a combination, a constellation, of a prime minister who is accused in serious corruption charges, who’s afraid, as a coward, who is afraid of prison, together with messianic, fascist bigots who think that the blood of human beings, Israelis and Palestinians alike, is the red carpet of the Messiah. So, that’s — that combination, actually, created the genocide in Gaza that took place and that continued for two years at the expense also of the Israeli hostages and soldiers. That’s the key to understand what was going on.
And when President Trump dares say that Netanyahu should get a pardon, first of all, of course, he intervenes in domestic issues which are not his business. But on top of that — and in my view, worse than that — is that he actually speaks the language of a mob, of the mob. He’s not Tony Soprano, but he behaves as if he was.
AMY GOODMAN: Ofer Cassif, I want to thank you so much for being with us, member of the Israeli Knesset and the Hadash-Ta’al coalition. On Monday, he and the Palestinian parliamentarian Ayman Odeh were ousted from the Knesset during President Trump’s speech, after the two shouted “terrorist” at Trump and held up signs that read “Recognize Palestine.”
OFER CASSIF: I want to correct you, please. We didn’t shout anything. We were totally silent. We didn’t shout at all. We just held the sign, “Recognize Palestine.” That’s it. We didn’t shout. We didn’t curse. We didn’t interrupt. We kept silent.
AMY GOODMAN: And are you going to be allowed back into the Knesset, or were you expelled?
OFER CASSIF: Who knows? At the moment, I am suspended anyway, until the end of December, because I dare say that there was genocide going on. It was forbidden to say that there was a genocide. But I appeal to the Supreme Court. Let’s see what’s going to happen.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, when we come back, we’re going to Physicians for Human Rights Israel in Ramallah to talk about the Gaza doctors who are still being held, imprisoned by Israel, including the pediatrician Dr. Hussam Abu Safiya, the director of the Kamal Adwan Hospital. And we hope to go to Gaza, which has lost internet connection, but we hope to speak with Al Jazeera’s Hani Mahmoud. This is Democracy Now! Back in 30 seconds.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: The late Randy Weston, playing the blues, performing the song when he spoke with Democracy Now! in 2012. To see our interview and his performance, you can go to democracy now.org.
