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AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. We’re broadcasting from the U.N. climate summit from the Brazilian city of Belém. It’s the gateway to the Amazon.
COP30 comes 33 years after the Rio Earth Summit, which established the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, the UNFCC. Leaders and delegates from more than 190 countries have entered a second week of negotiations at the summit, known as COP30 — that’s Conference of Parties 30.
We’re joined now by two guests. Leila Salazar-López is the executive director of Amazon Watch. She recently wrote an article headlined “COP30 at the Crossroads: Indigenous Sovereignty or Climate Collapse.” And we’re joined by Viviana Santiago, the executive director of Oxfam Brazil. Earlier this year, she joined the Lula administration as a member of the presidency council focused on sustainable development. Oxfam recently released a report titled “Climate Plunder: How a Powerful Few Are Locking the World into Disaster,” unquote. Oxfam also submitted a petition of over a million signatures to the Brazilian government demanding that the super rich pay for climate damages.
We welcome you both to Democracy Now! It’s quite something to be here at the gateway of the Amazon. Viviana, let’s begin with you. For our global audience, can you set the stage? Where exactly are we? What is the significance of Belém? Why is the U.N. climate summit — why did Lula, the president of Brazil, choose to put it in this gateway city?
VIVIANA SANTIAGO: Thank you so much for the invitation. It’s really important to us to be here with you.
And talk about the importance of being here in Amazon region is talk about the vulnerability that you can see in this region. You can see how poverty affect people here. But also you can see how these people can answer the climate crisis. I think that the whole idea is about what we can have from this environment in terms of resistance, in terms of power, connections with Earth and nature, and how ancestrality plays an important role, ensuring that we need to connect with our roots. But at the same time, we can see that these people that are fighting for survival, fighting for conservancy, are the most affected people in the world. And it’s about climate crisis, and in some way it’s about to talk about climate justice. We need to understand that people that are most affected for the climate crisis are the people that did nothing to this crisis. So, how can we act in terms to protect their lives and ensure that the rich polluters will pay for that?
AMY GOODMAN: So, here we are at the mouth of the Amazon — right? — in Belém, the Amazon, the lungs of the planet. Can you talk about the impacts of rising temperatures and deforestation?
VIVIANA SANTIAGO: Here in Brazil, and especially in this region, we can see this impact. We can see how the heat is affecting people’s health, how it’s almost impossible for some children go to school, because school are not prepared for this heat, even here in this region. But at certain point in some months here, the entire country can suffer the consequences. So, what we are facing right now is a climate crisis here in Brazil that is affecting the entire country. What happens in Amazon affect in Brazil as a whole. So, what we need to do right now is ensure that we will have conditions to adaptations and to mitigate the risk.
AMY GOODMAN: Leila Salazar-López, put Brazil in a regional context, the significance of this country when it comes to climate change. I mean, we just had Viviana saying the people who least cause climate change are most affected by it. And also respond to President Trump, a well-known and proud climate change denier — He campaigned on the slogan “drill, baby drill” — not sending a high-level delegation to this climate summit. It’s the first time in the COP’s history.
LEILA SALAZAR-LÓPEZ: Well, thank you, Amy, for having me, and Democracy Now! Really, this is about democracy, right? You opened the segment with saying that we haven’t had civil society at COPs in three years, and so that’s what we’re seeing here in Brazil. We’re seeing —
AMY GOODMAN: And explain that, because we’re talking about more repressive governments that didn’t allow public protest.
LEILA SALAZAR-LÓPEZ: For the last three years, the COPs have been in Egypt, Dubai and Azerbaijan. The civil society presence has been very, very limited. It’s been inside. And the beauty of the forest COP, the beauty of the people’s COP in Brazil, is that civil society is very active, both inside and outside.
And as Viviana was saying, you know, it’s critical that — what is happening here in the Amazon. The Amazon is at a tipping point. It’s not coming; it’s here. Why is that? I think we should talk about why the Amazon is at a tipping point, why the Amazon is literally burning. It’s because of policy. It’s because of industry. It’s because of extraction. It’s because of continued land grabbing, oil extraction, mineral extraction, land grabbing of Indigenous peoples’ lands.
And that’s why we see the mobilizations of Indigenous and local communities saying, “We want our land back. We want land demarcation. We want our rights respected. We want mining off of our lands. We want the Amazon free of extraction.” Literally, there is a protest happening right now by a mobilization of Indigenous peoples, leaving the Indigenous village that has over 3,500 Indigenous people staying there.
And that’s why we’re saying that this is the Indigenous COP. There are more Indigenous peoples here in Belém than at any other COP in history. And that is significant, because Indigenous peoples are the guardians of the forests. They are protecting the forest — riverine people, campesino people, quilombolas. They are protecting the forests from the threats, from the destruction. And they’ve made a very significant presence here at COP.
And yes, there’s the absence of the U.S. government, as climate deniers, but the U.S. civil society is here, too. We’re here very strongly. And whether our federal government denies climate, we’re here to also stand with the people and also demand that the Amazon be free of extraction, and that we have — you know, there is no mention of fossil fuel extraction and the fact that it is the number one cause of global greenhouse gas emissions. So, there’s something missing there. When we have over 1,200 fossil fuel lobbyists here, that’s more than some entire country delegations. So, we need to come to reality here with the fact that we need to keep oil in the ground. We’ve been saying this for a long time, since the Paris Agreement. We’re a lot closer to hearing that here at COP30. And it is the Indigenous people and the local communities who are making that known, that we want the Amazon free of extraction.
AMY GOODMAN: And, Viviana Santiago, it is those people, grassroots environmental activists, particularly Indigenous, who also face the most threat, not just environmentally, but how many have been murdered in the last years? Can you talk about that violence and who’s perpetrating it?
VIVIANA SANTIAGO: Here in Brazil, we are completely aware that Brazil is one of the most dangerous countries in the world for civil society activists, especially environmental activists. And the murder of civil society activists is completely related with land, with extractivism, with the protection of the forests. People who are right now here in Brazil talking about it are in danger. And there is not enough conversations about it, not from the entire society, because we understand that the interests that are behind of this reality are completely aligned with fossil fuel, with the new economy, with this model of sustainability. And here in Brazil, we will not face some — any improvement in this context if we are not open to discuss it with the private sectors, who are really behind of these realities, because in the ground people are being murdered because they are trying to protect their lands, their lifestyle, their rivers.
AMY GOODMAN: Now, you’re really wearing two hats, though I’m the one wearing the hat in this show. Your two hats, you’re head of Oxfam Brazil, and you just joined the Lula administration as — in his presidency advisory council. Just ahead of COP, Lula’s government approved new oil exploration near the mouth of the Amazon River, while Lula has backed a 900-kilometer highway redevelopment that environmental and Indigenous groups say would provide access for extractive industries and threaten huge new areas of forest. Can you comment on this, as a person who’s so often been on the outside, but you’re on the inside now, as well?
VIVIANA SANTIAGO: Yeah, it was really devastating for all of us, these decisions. We, as civil society, we fight a lot against it. But I understand that in this government, they think that there is a way to finance a transition from fossil fuels. Personally, I don’t agree. I completely disagree that it can be a path for us, because this path previously led us on this reality that we are facing right now. It’s generating a lot of resistance in the entire country and generating solidarity in the entire world. I think that it’s still time to change this reality. It really affects and really increase the threat against Indigenous people and traditional communities in Amazonas. There is no way that these activities can’t generate more impact, more danger. And I think that it is still time to change these decisions. The movement right now in Brazil from civil society is really trying to change this decision, because it’s impossible to keep Brazil on track with the situation right now.
AMY GOODMAN: Leila Salazar-López, can you talk about the role of Indigenous people being excluded from the talks? And you’ve been here for the last week. If you can talk about the state of the talks right now here in Belém? We’re inside COP30, inside the U.N. climate summit, where these negotiations are taking place. And for people who don’t understand what happens every year, the significance of this being called an action summit?
LEILA SALAZAR-LÓPEZ: The significance of it being called an action summit is because we need action for the Amazon. We need action for the global climate and for the communities. We hear a lot of talk about direct finance. There’s a lot of talk about finance. But for Indigenous peoples, who we work in solidarity with, it’s about direct finance to Indigenous peoples, not only to governments, not only through corporations and intermediaries, but directly to Indigenous peoples, so that they have the sovereignty to make their decisions on what they want to do with their land.
And that’s why we see, you know, when there are people excluded, we see here in Brazil, people aren’t used to saying no. And the Munduruku people, who traveled from their communities, from their territories, which are threatened by illegal mining, which are threatened by an industrial waterway to transport soy, which are threatened by a Farrogrão, the soy railway, to transport soy to Europe and China, when we see them coming in buses, in ferries, in boats, in giant caravans, they’re not coming to stand outside. They’re coming to put some pressure and some heat on the governments, the negotiators. And that’s what they came to do. When we saw the COP being shut down on Friday, it was the Munduruku people saying, “No one in, no one out.” Why? Because, they said, “We want our land demarcated. We do not want this Ferrogrão, this soy railway. We do not want this waterway.” And the COP president came out, and Marina Silva came out, and Minister Sônia Guajajara came out and met with them. And that — you know, that wasn’t the plan, but that’s democracy. And that was what is so beautiful here in Brazil.
And as a result, you know, the Brazilian government said, you know, “We’re going to put a hold on this Ferrogrão. We’re not going — we’re not going forward on this soy railway for Cargill and ADM and Bunge and all these multinational corporations to feed animals, not people. We are going to — we’re not going forward with this without people’s consent.” And that is — that’s democracy. And that’s the power of the Indigenous movement here in Brazil.
AMY GOODMAN: In fact, there is an Indigenous march going on right now right outside of COP. But the level of negotiations and the countries that are playing a key role, if you can explain, sort of an insider’s look, as well?
LEILA SALAZAR-LÓPEZ: Well, honestly, I have not been on — so much on the inside. I’ve been more on the outside. But I do know that from the Indigenous caucus, one of the victories is that they are — there is mention of mining. There is. And that’s — that has never happened at a COP. There is a mention of mining as a cause of climate change, and that there needs to be free, prior and informed consent. And there’s also a mention of discussions and a mention of Indigenous peoples in voluntary isolation. That means uncontacted peoples. There are still uncontacted peoples here in the Amazon. And that is one of the major demands of the Indigenous movement, that the lands of Indigenous people in voluntary isolation, in particular, need to be free from any kind of extraction.
AMY GOODMAN: I want people to understand, and let me put this question —
LEILA SALAZAR-LÓPEZ: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: — to Viviana Santiago. Here you are in Brazil, head of Oxfam Brazil. What isolated communities are, people who voluntarily choose, communities that voluntarily choose to be isolated, and what that means? It’s a really formal government designation. And how the government protects them?
VIVIANA SANTIAGO: I think that isolated Indigenous communities are the most beautiful thing in the entire world, because we can see how these people have decided to live according their beliefs, according their traditions. They really believe that they don’t need this contact. They don’t want this contact. And the way that they are framing their cosmovision is based on their own history and completely connected with ancestrality. Here in Brazil, they are protected by law. They are protected. And we can ensure also this protection, because they are more vulnerable to disease than the other people and communities. So, avoid and really prevent people from outside to be there is a duty of the government here in Brazil.
But their lands are super valued here in Brazil. And that’s why to address mining during COP, it’s important, because right now, because of the transitions we are facing all the time the importance of the minerals, but there’s not good mining. So, when we are talking about the importance of these minerals, we are talking about mining. And we are again putting these lands in the center of this process and making them more vulnerable than before. And I think that right now Brazilian government must ensure total protections, and it can be done by protect their lands. If you protect the land, you protect the people.
AMY GOODMAN: There are more Indigenous people here at this COP30 than there have been at any U.N. climate summit. I’m wondering, before we wrap up, if you can talk about President Lula’s proposal of Tropical Forests Forever, if you can explain — and maybe, Leila, you can, too. Talk about Lula’s proposal to pay countries not to deforest.
VIVIANA SANTIAGO: I will start. I can say that, in our perspective as Oxfam, we understand that it’s really innovative. This mechanism, it’s really an innovation from COP presidents, from Brazilian presidents. But we also understand that there would be faster ways to achieve the same result. We believe that the global taxations on wealth and sectors that are polluting the world right now would be more effective and fast. The amount of money that is available for communities, it starts on 20%, but we understand that it would be in a start, but Indigenous peoples are asked for at least half of the fund. So, there is a simple way, and we can do it, taxing the rich polluters, taxing the sectors that are polluting more, and the money, it can be let to the local communities.
AMY GOODMAN: Leila, we spoke to a Jamaican British climate activist when the hurricane hit Jamaica, and she said, rather than naming hurricanes, you know, “Hurricane Melissa,” “Hurricane John,” why don’t you name them after oil companies? And I’m just wondering, Leila, as we wrap up, the significance of Trump not sending a high-level delegation to this summit, the first time a American government has not. I mean, there are a number of senators and congressmembers who do believe in climate change, who are here, representing the government, but not representing Trump. Do you see this actually as an opportunity, that the administration will not be shaping what goes on, or are they doing it in other ways, through the fossil fuel lobbyists, for example?
LEILA SALAZAR-LÓPEZ: Yeah, as I mentioned before, while the federal government is not here, civil society is here. And subnational states were here. I mean, the California governor was here. Various representatives of the state of California were here. And we’re very happy to have been collaborating with Senator Josh Becker, who led an initiative in the state of California to investigate California’s reliance on Amazon crude, because over half of the Amazon crude that comes out of Ecuador, which has had an amazing election yesterday for the rights of nature and for democracy, half of the oil — over half of the oil that comes out of Ecuador comes to California. So, we’re looking into, as a part of the just transition in California, phasing out Amazon crude. But we also need to phase out crude in Kern County and offshore in California. And so, we need to see — we’re seeing climate leadership from state levels, not the federal government. But I’m sure, you know, with Trump’s and other countries’ desire to get every last drop of oil, I’m sure they’re supporting the fossil fuel industry lobbyists that are here present at COP.
AMY GOODMAN: So, we’re going to continue this conversation all week, as we’re here broadcasting from COP30, the U.N. climate summit, the gateway city of Belém and the gateway to the Amazon. Leila Salazar-López, thanks so much for joining us, executive director of Amazon Watch, and Viviana Santiago, executive director of Oxfam Brazil, now in the Lula government, part of the advisory presidential council.
Coming up, Asad Rehman, chief executive of Friends of the Earth. Stay with us.
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AMY GOODMAN: Indigenous protesters chanting during Saturday’s march on COP30 here in Belém, Brazil.
