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AMY GOODMAN: We’re broadcasting from the U.N. climate summit — that’s COP30 — from the Brazilian city of Belém, the gateway to the Amazon. The gathering comes 33 years after the Rio Earth Summit, which created the U.N. Framework Convention on Climate Change, the UNFCCC. This is Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva.
PRESIDENT LUIZ INÁCIO LULA DA SILVA: [translated] The climate convention returns to the country where it was born. Today, the eyes of the world turn to Belém with immense expectation. For the first time in history, a climate COP will take place in the heart of the Amazon. In the global imagination, there is no greater symbol of the environmental cause than the Amazon rainforest.
AMY GOODMAN: New data from the Brazilian government shows deforestation of the Amazon has hit an 11-year low. This is Brazil’s Environment Minister Marina Silva.
MARINA SILVA: [translated] We have the commitment to end deforestation by 2030. With this experience, we want to encourage and create mechanisms so that this example is followed. It’s about leading by example. Now, those who have more financial resources, more human resources and more technological resources have the obligation and the responsibility to do more.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Brazil’s Environment Minister Marina Silva.
While the Brazilian government highlights its work on deforestation, many climate activists have criticized the Lula administration for recently approving new exploratory drilling near the mouth of the Amazon by state-run oil giant Petrobras. Earlier this year, Brazil joined OPEC, the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries. Brazil has also faced criticism for cutting through rainforest to build a new four-lane highway. It was built in time for the climate summit here in Belém, though started many years ago. In addition, cruise ships had to be brought into Belém to help house delegates due to a shortage of hotel rooms in this gateway city.
We begin today’s show with Ilan Zugman. He is a Brazilian climate activist and 350.org’s regional head for Latin America and the Caribbean. He is based in southern Brazil.
Welcome to Democracy Now! It is great to be in your state here, in your country, Brazil. But if you can talk about what the world should understand about Brazil, a contradictory environmental history and home to the Amazon, the Brazilian rainforest?
ILAN ZUGMAN: Yeah, of course. Well, hello, Amy. Hi, everyone. It’s great to be here.
And yeah, Brazil is this huge country with many different views. We have the biggest rainforest of the world. We have some very powerful movements, Indigenous people, traditional communities. It’s one of the biggest democracies of the planet. And in this new government of Lula that was elected about three years ago, the government is trying really to improve the climate and environmental situation of the country. We’ve been able to achieve good results on reducing deforestation across several biomes, including the Amazon, but also in the Cerrado. That’s another important biome of the country. Brazil was also able to create the first-ever Ministry of Indigenous People. Protection of Indigenous lands is increasing in the country. New lands are being demarcated.
But where we are going to facing issues in Brazil right now is the part connected with the energy sector, where, unfortunately, Lula is still pushing for new oil and gas areas in the country, including in the Amazon. A few weeks before the COP30 started, a new license was granted to Petrobras in the river mouth of the Amazon basin to start exploring for new oil and gas in the area, which for us, it’s super contradictory. The oil industry is the main causer of the climate crisis. If it was not for the oil and gas industry and the coal, we would not be having COPs. These are the guys that are causing climate change. The highest greenhouse emissions come from them. So, in order to be a real climate leadership, as Lula is saying, as its government say, we don’t think it’s wise. We don’t think we are going to be able to tackle climate change. And Brazil is not going to be able to hit its own climate targets if this exploitation of oil and gas in the offshore of the Amazon goes ahead.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about President Lula? Lula is arguing that oil revenues are needed to help finance a green energy transition. Of course, he’s been criticized by many for making this comment. André Corrêa do Lago, president of the COP30, has said it is easier and cheaper to borrow money to invest in oil projects than in other more sustainable ones, said the money you gain from exploring oil can be used internally for projects that are good for clean energy transition.
ILAN ZUGMAN: Yeah, sure. Well, this is a narrative that we’ve been hearing for several years, not only from Brazil, but from many countries around the world. And we don’t think that this is going to happen in Brazil. Brazil does not have a clear policy about what needs to be done with the profits from the oil and gas industry. And even though Brazil has been exploiting oil for decades — right? We have the pre-salt basin that is this huge area in the southeast, offshore exploitation. And an analysis done by an organization called INESC discovered that less than 1% from all of the royalties that are coming from the oil exploitation in Brazil are going to the energy transition. So, why now is it going to be different?
Brazil has not presented yet its own national just energy transition plan, that was a promise from the government. The government is going to its final year. Next year, we have presidential election in Brazil. And we don’t see this plan showing what needs to be done with the royalties from the oil industry. So, we need to see a clear plan, and then it might help, but we think that investments need to go to renewable energy and not to the oil industry. Brazil needs to do a reform of the subsidies, because there’s millions of subsidies that still goes to oil industry.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk more about Petrobras, the state oil company, receiving a license from Lula to conduct exploratory oil drilling off the — in the sea, off the Amazon, despite the environmental concerns about the project and right in the lead-up to COP30?
ILAN ZUGMAN: Yeah, sounds crazy, right? But yeah, Petrobras is one of the biggest polluters in the world, is one of the main companies contributing to climate change, given its huge portfolio of oil and gas, not only in Brazil, but also in Africa, for example, and other parts of the world.
This specific area, called Block 59, it was an area that was first purchased by other companies, like British Petroleum and Total, and they tried to get a license for many years from IBAMA, the national regulation agency. They could not get the license, and they sold this area to Petrobras. And then Petrobras started this campaign, building pressure in the government. Lula decided to change the president of Petrobras this year to step up the pressure. Politicians from the north of the Amazon also stepped up their pressure so this license could be given.
And we believe that’s a huge mistake. It’s a very sensitive area with very important ecosystems. An oil spill in the area will have like terrible impacts for Indigenous communities, fishers, quilombolas, riverine communities. It’s an area where we have some very important mangroves that are natural nurseries for biodiversity. So, exploiting oil and gas there is a really bad idea that’s going to damage the ecosystem and also Brazil’s reputation as a climate leader.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to ask you about the Amazon rainforest being the lungs of the planet. It’s something I’m so used to saying for so many years. But the fact is that may be misleading now. National Geographic reports Amazon’s net contribution to the oxygen we breathe likely hovers around zero. In 2021, the journal Nature reported the Amazon rainforest is emitting more carbon dioxide than it absorbs, driven by deforestation, fires and warming temperatures.
ILAN ZUGMAN: Yeah, that’s a sad story. The Amazon used to be the lungs of the planet. But given climate change, deforestation, fires, livestock industry —
AMY GOODMAN: You mean, when you say “livestock,” cattle farming.
ILAN ZUGMAN: Cattle, exactly, cattle. Many parts of the Amazon are now reaching a tipping point, so a point of no return. There are some areas of the Amazon that are at the risk of becoming savannas, for example, getting drier and drier. So, given all of this, these impacts, the forest is losing its capacity to sequestrate carbon dioxide, methane and other greenhouse gases as it used to be several years ago. So, that’s a true but sad story, yeah,
AMY GOODMAN: I want to ask you about U.S. policy, since U.S. is so important in the world, the historically largest greenhouse gas emitter, and President Trump’s relationship with autocratic leaders, people like Bolsonaro, who’s now, it looks like, about to go to prison, the former president, often called “the Trump of the tropics.” But it’s interesting how Trump has increased massively tariffs on Brazil, unless they free and drop the case against Bolsonaro, who, like Trump, attempted to overthrow the elections — in Bolsonaro’s case, in Brazil; in Trump’s case, in the United States in 2020. So, you have Brazil, a major oil producer in the world. He focuses on that. He focuses on Colombia, also a major producer, and Venezuela, as he bombs boat after boat without providing evidence that they are narcoterrorists on these boats, and has just said he wants to attack Nigeria, the largest oil producer in Africa, that the attack would be “vicious and sweet.” Very unclear what that’s about. But if you can talk about Brazil’s place in the world as — what is it? — the fifth-largest oil-producing nation, and also the effect of Trump’s policies, U.S. policy, on Brazil and what Trump’s pushing for?
ILAN ZUGMAN: Of course, yeah. Well, Brazil and the U.S. have a very long story of relationships. They are still big partners, economic. There’s lots of relationships between the two countries, of course, with the change of governments in the U.S. and Brazil, right? First we have Biden to Trump. Then the opposites happen in Brazil, from Bolsonaro to Lula. The relationship now is a bit shaken. But in the last weeks, the relationship has been improving after they had this meeting in the U.N. summit in September. So, the U.S. is reducing now some tariffs in Brazil for some — for some products.
But, of course, the relationship now with the U.S. having a climate denier leading the country, we know that the interest is all about money, power, control. So, Brazil, as other countries, as you mentioned, in Latin America, also Nigeria, have a huge amount of resources, including oil, but also including the rare earth minerals, the critical minerals so needed for the energy transition. So we know that the U.S. is looking into all of that. And we hope that Brazil can continue to stay firm, negotiate and do what’s best for the country, for the interest of its own citizens, and not cede to the pressure from a climate denier.
AMY GOODMAN: Very quickly, what are you hoping to see from this COP30 summit?
ILAN ZUGMAN: Yeah, for us, we hope to see in this COP a road map to transition away from fossil fuels. That would be the best outcome from this COP. As climate change has been caused by fossil fuels, a road map saying how we will transition away from fossil fuels would be the best outcome from this COP. And also, if we get some quality and direct finance, public finance, going to the communities more affected by climate change, a deal on that will also be a critical first.
AMY GOODMAN: The presence of lobbyists here, more than a thousand, well over?
ILAN ZUGMAN: Yeah, so, it’s not a surprise for us that this COP has the highest presence ever of fossil fuel lobbyists, 1,600, almost 20% higher than it was in Baku. And it’s the second-largest delegation of COP30, right? Brazil is the biggest one, with about 3,000 people, and the second-largest delegation, it’s the fossil fuel lobbyists, which is — yeah, it’s awful.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank Ilan Zugman, Brazilian climate activist, 350.org’s regional head for Latin America and the Caribbean, based in southern Brazil.
Coming up, we speak to a leading Indigenous activist from Ecuador. In fact, here at the COP30, despite the major protests against the lobbyists, against the fossil fuel countries leading policymaking, there’s also the largest Indigenous presence. Stay with us.
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AMY GOODMAN: A song by the Guajajara people of Brazil, performed at the COP30 opening ceremony last week.
