This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. We’re broadcasting from the U.N. climate summit — that’s COP30 — from the Brazilian city of Belém, the gateway to the Amazon. I’m Amy Goodman.
As delegates and leaders representing more than 190 countries continue negotiations, the Brazilian presidency is expected to release a new draft text today addressing some of the most pressing climate demands, including financing and the transition away from fossil fuels. Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva is in Belém today as pressure is mounting to include a roadmap to phase out oil, coal and gas in the final climate text. He may pass us at any moment. More than 80 countries from Africa, Latin America, Asia and the Pacific, as well as European Union member states and the United Kingdom, have joined those calls, with Colombia leading the efforts.
This all comes as frustration is mounting over the refusal by wealthier nations and some of the world’s worst polluters to properly fund climate adaptation efforts for Global South countries most impacted by the climate crisis, but those that did not cause it.
We’re now joined by Susana Muhamad, longtime environmentalist. She served as Colombia’s minister of environment and sustainable development from 2022 to this year. She was also the president of last year’s United Nations Biodiversity Conference held in Cali, Colombia. She is of Palestinian descent.
We welcome you back to Democracy Now!, Susana. We have spoken to you at past COPs. You were the main climate negotiator at one point for Colombia. If you can initiate this global audience into what COP means, even that, the Conference of Parties 30, 30 years, why this is so important, and what’s happening today with the Brazilian president here, and what you’re seeing in the texts that have been presented?
SUSANA MUHAMAD: Thank you so much, Amy, and I’m so glad to be here again this year.
Well, it’s very important to let the audience understand what this environment means. COP is the Conference of the Parties. Who are the parties? And the parties to what? The parties are the countries of the world that have subscribed the Convention on Climate Change. And this convention is an international treaty signed by the countries to be able to control and stabilize the climate, because we knew since 30 years ago — and that’s why it’s called COP30, because it’s the 30th time that the parties meet to try to solve this issue.
But what’s the reality? You have faced it in the United States during these years, that things are getting out of control, the climate. And the emissions, the CO2 emissions that produce this climate crisis, are increasing, not decreasing, and also that the climate is becoming more wild, if we can say it in simple words, and more dangerous, the situation.
So, this 2025 COP is critical, because scientists said that we needed to cut emissions by 42% compared to 2019 in 2030, but the reality is that we are in a trajectory, rather than to decrease 42%, to increase 16%. And rather than to stabilize the climate in 1.5, we are actually going to a trajectory to have an increase in temperature of 2.8 Celsius. And just to give your audience a dimension of what that means, we have never experienced in the last two geological eras this temperature. Humanity, since it’s a species alive on planet Earth, has never experienced this temperature. We have no clue, no idea what this means. And when we could see that happening? At the end of this century. And who will be living this? The children that were already born in this century. So, that’s why this conference is the only fora that we have internationally, globally. So, countries, agree and take action.
AMY GOODMAN: I’m going to ask you about what Kumi Naidoo yesterday, the South African climate activist, called “the F-word”: fossil fuels. Now, what would it mean to include the phaseout of fossil fuels in the final climate text? And how is it possible that that hasn’t happened before?
SUSANA MUHAMAD: Well, it happened for the first time in Dubai, which was actually a very interesting process, because it was in the Arab world, in the United Arab Emirates. And you know that the largest reserves of oil in the world are there, and the cheapest ones. So, it was a big effort that we could include that an objective is to phase out fossil fuels, which actually was not even that language. It was “transition away” from fossil fuels, because it’s a transition. But what does that mean? That we should change our source of energy. We should stop producing, extending the frontier of production, and also stop the consumption and burning of fossil fuels. And that is a whole change.
So, now what happens is that it has been two years since Dubai, and the Brazilian government actually gave licenses for exploration in the Amazon, in the Amazon Delta, outside in deep waters where the Amazon River comes, just weeks before this conference. It’s a very contradictory message, because, you know, the Amazon is the — is one of the pillars of climate stability. The Amazon absorbs so much CO2. And what happens when we create deforestation is that every hectare deforested emits CO2 and stops absorbing. So, if we lose the Amazon, which means deforestation of around 25%, we actually lose the control of the climate. And we are in the Amazon. This COP is in the Amazon in 2025, five years before we need to reach the goal to stabilize the climate. And the Brazilian government gives licenses for exploration of oil a few weeks before.
So, the elephant in the room is the fossil fuels. The Arab countries don’t want to speak about it. Actually, they are trying to bring back the decision of Dubai and say, “Oh, we are — we don’t feel that that’s correct,” which was a big effort. But the good news is that yesterday a coalition of 80 countries stood up and said, “We have to develop a pathway for the transition. We cannot leave this COP.” So, the elephant in the room has become now the main issue. And it has light, and it’s now in negotiated text. And now President Lula is coming today, and Brazil is now committed that this roadmap advances.
But I give you a sober fact. Right now countries are planning to expand fossil fuel productions in 120% more than what is required to stabilize the climate at 1.5 Celsius. And for you who are seeing us out there, remember what was the year 2024, and think about in your local area how was the climate that year. That was the first year that we reached, as an average temperature in the planet, 1.5 Celsius. I remember in my country, 400 municipalities out of 1,100 were without water. The largest city, Bogotá, went into rationalizing water for one year. We had fires. We have drought. And it was actually really, like, if that’s going to be the new reality, I cannot imagine what is with 2.8. And that’s actually the environmental limiting we are working towards.
And so, to summarize, the struggle in this COP is between the fossil capital and the countries that want to continue to live on fossil fuels, and the other countries that actually say we have to put humanity, environmental security first and save the children that were already born in this century.
AMY GOODMAN: Susana Muhamad, you used to be the chief negotiator on climate at the COPs. You were the climate minister. So, can you talk about the power of the oil lobby? I mean, we’re talking about over 1,600, the largest group of lobbyists ever. Also, there are 900 Indigenous representatives. That is the largest group of Indigenous representation. So, talk about the balance. And also, are Indigenous demands being considered here? I mean, Indigenous leaders shut down this COP on Friday for hours.
SUSANA MUHAMAD: It’s exactly — I think that’s the picture of the 21st century. You want to summarize this issue in one picture? It is the picture of the woman from the Amazon, the Indigenous woman, blocking the entrance of the COP, and on the other side of the fence, the military protecting the fortress of the COP. What fortress are you protecting? You’re protecting the fossil fuel capitalists. That’s who are you protecting.
And actually, the influence in these rooms of the fossil fuel lobby is huge. That comes in two forms: petrostates that have — even Colombia has its own oil state company, but also private companies that have their lobbyists. And it becomes a battle of, actually, the fossil fuel capital resisting change. This is what COP has become. This is what it’s about now, resisting the change from the fossil fuel capital.
And outside the fence of the COP, outside the military, not 900 — 900 were the ones that got accredited. We have 4,000 Indigenous peoples from all the Amazon that came during 25 days by boat through the Amazon River, from all the communities, from the eight countries of the Amazon. They have what they call the Indigenous Camp. They are there outside. These people, they do have the knowledge to save the planet. They do have the knowledge to save the Amazon. And we are not talking about that here. So, that’s why, on Tuesday, actually, they came by force, and they took over these corridors. And that presence of what I call the blood, the sweat, the tears of the people at the frontlines of the climate crisis is what we need inside this room. And unfortunately, although we have to say it is much better in Brazil than when we had the COP in Egypt, in the United Arab Emirates and Azerbaijan, which we didn’t even were able to do the protest in the street, the march of climate — but that’s actually, I think, the forces in the 21st century, the people at the frontlines against the fossil fuel capital.
AMY GOODMAN: We only have a minute to go, but I wanted to ask you two quick questions. The significance of President Trump, for the first time the United States not sending a high-level delegation? Do you actually think that’s good or bad in terms of how they influence the outcome? And also, you are a Colombian of Palestinian descent. And your thoughts right now on what’s happening in Gaza?
SUSANA MUHAMAD: Yes, on the first one, it’s absolutely terrible the United States is not here. It is the second-biggest polluter in the world. And we, to be able — I mean, this is the problem. This problem cannot be solved by any single country. It has to be the global community together.
But the worst thing is the escalation of the conflict. Before, it used to be blocking here, as some countries are doing, but now it’s with military action. So, having the U.S. military deployment of military forces to the Caribbean have killed 80 Latin Americans, in total impunity, in the last two months, with nobody stopping that. And actually, my fear is that what President Trump is coming for is for the oil resources of Venezuela and also the minerals of Colombia and Latin and South America. If this is going to be the escalation of conflict, we actually are in a very bad shape. That’s why it will be a fantastic message from Brazil that more than 80 countries — the majority of countries said, “No, we are not going to change the agenda because there is military bullying from any powerful country right now. And we have to secure the humanity.”
And on Gaza, these are not issues that are not correlated, because they use Gaza as a laboratory, because they were able to move forward. And even President Trump declared in the Israeli parliament that the weapons were given by the U.S. to commit genocide, because this has happened, and the world, the United Nations, nobody could stop this. That’s why they have now the license, the green light, to start moving forward to pursue whatever interests they think they want to pursue. And this is why we have to strengthen the international community and multilateralism and also the resistance in the frontlines of these issues, because, I tell you something, people will not allow any military power to kill them. Even the Palestinians right now, with everything that has happened, are still resisting. And that’s actually a lesson from all of us, because if the defense of the environment will become a military conflict, we are already seeing in Palestine what will happen in the future. I don’t wish that future. I think we can actually — humanity can do better, and that we can be very proactive and productive in shifting this situation of climate crisis, rather than continue investing in arms, in armies and in defense, as the whole world is doing. So, there’s no money for climate, but then everybody, in two seconds, puts 5% of their GDP in defense.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, Susana Muhamad, we want to thank you so much for being with us, a longtime environmentalist, served as Colombia’s minister of environment and sustainable development from 2022 to earlier this year, also president of the 2024 U.N. Biodiversity Conference held in Cali, Colombia. She is of Palestinian descent.
When we come back, we’ll speak with Sudanese climate researcher Lina Yassin, who is here at COP30 supporting the least developed countries, the LDC Group. And we’ll speak with Jean Su, co-author of the new report, “Data Crunch: How the AI Boom Threatens to Entrench Fossil Fuels and Compromise Climate Goals.” We’re at COP30 in Belém, Brazil, gateway to the Amazon. Stay with us.
