This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: We begin today’s show with rising calls by the United Nations to enact stronger protections for refugees and migrants forcibly displaced by climate disasters. In a new report, the U.N.’s High Commissioner for Refugees estimates about 250 million people, predominantly in the Global South, have been forced from their homes in the last decade due to deadly droughts, storms, floods and extreme heat — that’s more than 67,000 displacements a day. Many of these populations have faced repeated displacement due to war and extreme poverty, with U.N. experts saying three in four of those who have been uprooted now live in countries where communities are vulnerable to, quote, “high-to-extreme exposure to climate-related dangers.” In countries like Chad, refugee camps are likely to become uninhabitable by 2050 as extreme weather worsens, according to the U.N.
This comes as wealthier Global North nations, which are disproportionately responsible for the climate crisis, have intensified their crackdown on migrants and climate refugees fleeing compounding humanitarian crises. At the U.S.-Mexico border, many of these migrants come from regions devastated by the climate crisis and destructive industries, including mining, driven by foreign powers.
AMY GOODMAN: On Wednesday, Democracy Now! spoke to Edwin Josué Castellanos López, Guatemala’s vice minister of natural resources and climate change, about Guatemala’s role in ensuring the United States respects the human rights of migrant communities.
EDWIN JOSUÉ CASTELLANOS LÓPEZ: It is definitely a very complex situation, and we are just trying to work as much as possible with the U.S. government to make sure that they treat our citizens in the best way possible. It is difficult, because they are, of course, interested in making sure that no more people go to the U.S. But we need to find a midway solution. We need to make sure that our people have the opportunities that they need. Many, many of these migrants are probably related to climate issues. But, of course, the main issue is always poverty, lack of opportunity, and climate change has basically exacerbated this problem.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Guatemala’s vice minister of natural resources and climate change, speaking to Democracy Now!’s María Inés Taracena.
For more, we’re joined by Nikki Reisch, director of the Climate and Energy Program at the Center for International Environmental Law.
We want to talk about climate refugees around the world. But first, you are a leader in these negotiations and understanding what’s going on. If you can explain what are the sticking points at this point? It’s unusual that the president of the country, President Lula, has come back to the climate summit at this early point. What are they negotiating over? And what is stopping them from moving forward? People may be shocked that at a climate summit, some of the countries are raising the issue of trans people. What does that have to do with climate change? But give us a broad overview.
NIKKI REISCH: Sure. Well, thank you so much for having me, and thank you generally for your commitment to independent journalism, which is so critical in this moment.
I’d say, in the last 24 hours, we’ve seen an intensification of negotiations between states, largely behind closed doors, around what are really the big-ticket items here, and arguably the big-ticket items at every COP: finance, fossil fuels and forests. So, this is about the drivers of the climate crisis and the resources and finance needed to not only address mitigation of those drivers, but to respond to adaptation needs to help communities that are suffering disproportionately from this crisis and to deliver reparation for loss and damage.
So, those issues are front and center and are highly contentious, because this is a justice package that’s being negotiated here. A just transition can’t move forward without adequate financing from public sources, without creating new debt for the countries that are really on the frontlines of this crisis. So, the big polluters need to phase out and pay up. And those are some of the issues that are at the center of the debates now.
AMY GOODMAN: And the fact that this issue of the definition of men and women is being raised at a climate summit, is that just being thrown in to really muck up the works and not arrive at a final resolution?
NIKKI REISCH: We’ve seen no end to the kind of procedural tactics that some countries will use to really derail the talks and avoid a phaseout of the fossil fuel era, to avoid responsibility for the contribution of large polluters to — and the biggest fossil producers, to this crisis. And we’re seeing the weaponization of issues, attacks on human rights, including on the very notion of gender, a pushback on references to law and legal obligation, that are really shocking but are part and parcel of a global trend towards regression, away from the basic dignity and respect for human rights of communities around the world, including of Indigenous peoples, who we’ve seen in full force here at this COP in the Amazon.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Nikki, as you mentioned, one of the key issues here, as indeed at every COP, is of fossil fuels. And now there’s been a push by more than 80 countries to formulate a roadmap to phase out fossil fuels. The countries include Germany, the U.K., Sweden, Ireland and Kenya. Of course, Saudi Arabia and Russia have constantly, consistently over the years, objected to coming up with such a roadmap, and the U.S. is simply absent. So, if you could comment on that, the absence of the U.S., and what this push means by more than 80 countries?
NIKKI REISCH: Sure. Well, I think the fact that we see 80 countries speaking out about the need for a roadmap away from fossil fuels is a testament to the clarity of the science, the law and the effectiveness of political pressure and the movement for climate justice. This issue is front and center, and undeniably, we cannot solve the climate crisis without ending the fossil fuel era, without tackling its root causes.
So, we see countries making those statements, but we need to go beyond political declarations. And that’s why it’s so important that we have leadership from countries like Colombia, a producing country, fossil fuel producer, in the Global South, that’s committed now to hosting the first international conference on fossil fuel phaseout outside of these halls, precisely because we see this continued procedural obstructionism from those countries that have a vested interest in the current status quo of fossil fuel dependence. We’ve seen them pull out all the procedural stops to really derail the talks here, as you said.
AMY GOODMAN: And, of course, it’s Brazil. It’s taking place in Brazil, another oil-rich country. And the significance of that and what the president, Lula — both Lula and Petro are targets of President Trump — what Lula is committed to right now, what he’s willing to do and what not?
NIKKI REISCH: It’s a great point, because we saw, just weeks before this COP opened, that there was an approval of new licenses for offshore oil and gas at the mouth of the Amazon, right offshore. And so, there are contradictions here. Unless we halt oil and gas extraction, we can’t fight this crisis. But we see leadership from countries like Colombia and others that are committed to pursuing real, concrete action, not just declarations here, but actually taking steps to phase out 1.5, in line with equity, beginning by halting expansion of fossil fuels and charting a pathway that provides resources to bring the rest of the world along.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: I mean, I guess the crucial question is, when countries as powerful and, indeed, the largest historic emitter, the United States —
NIKKI REISCH: Right.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: — are absent, on top of which the world’s largest oil exporter, Saudi Arabia, and the largest present emitter, China —
NIKKI REISCH: Yeah.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: — if these countries aren’t willing to go in and agree to what the terms are of negotiating a roadmap — it’s not even a final document —
NIKKI REISCH: Right.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: — a roadmap to the phasing out of fossil fuels, what incentive do other countries have to sign on?
NIKKI REISCH: Well, countries have an incentive, because the future is not fossil. They know that — like, Colombia, as a fossil fuel-producing country, recognizes that its own economic interests, and of its people, are not — don’t lie with fossil fuels. And so, they have options to go outside of this process, where we see the same obstructionist countries blocking progress decade after decade, and so that’s why they’re hosting a conference and working behind initiatives like the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty, a fossil fuel treaty that could actually bring a coalition of the willing countries together to start and build from there, because actually transitioning away from fossil fuels and taking the lead is in the benefit of those countries and their populations. It’s actually an upside.
AMY GOODMAN: Let’s talk about climate refugees. This is your specialty. Talk about the crisis in the world today, the hundreds of millions of people who are fleeing their countries because of a climate-related issue, and the countries they’re fleeing to, much more responsible for climate change, bringing down the gates.
NIKKI REISCH: Yes. I mean, I think the statistics on the numbers of people who are being displaced by climate-driven disaster are one of the most visible and visceral reminders of the reality and severity of the climate crisis, and the fact that this is about — this is not abstract. This is about real lives. It’s about survival. It’s about human rights and dignity, and, ultimately, about justice.
So, this is also a reminder of two things: one, that we cannot tackle climate change without addressing its root causes, and that we absolutely need to provide finance to those countries where they’re suffering disproportionately the impacts of climate change but have not contributed to it. So, developed countries need to pay up, get the adaptation finance to those countries and support communities to build resilience and stay in their homes, and when they do have to migrate due to floods, droughts, extreme weather, heat waves, that they are received with dignity and their human rights are respected. That is utterly critical, and the law requires it. The International Court of Justice, the highest court in the world, has pronounced that. The principle of non-refoulement law applies. That means that countries cannot send people back to places where they would be at grave risk of danger, including from climate harm.
So, this is a reminder that what we don’t need is a militarized response. We know that climate impacts compound the stressors and impacts from conflict and other violent crises. And instead of a closing of ranks, we need actually a stepping up of respect for rights and finance to the countries so that they can build their resilience to resist the impacts of climate change around the world.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And in fact, this report only — is that correct? — speaks about refugees, as opposed to internally displaced people, people displaced within their own borders, which I imagine would be a larger number.
NIKKI REISCH: Yeah, it’s my understanding that the bulk of these climate-induced migrants are actually internally displaced, and so that the impacts — it’s, in many ways, a myth that the impacts are falling first and foremost on the developed world, because actually the bulk of this migration is happening within countries and between developing countries that are already facing many stressors, including from conflict and resource constraints. So, we need to step up the commitments to supporting those who are only going to grow in number as the climate crisis worsens, unless there is concrete action here to address the root causes — fossil fuels, deforestation. We need to phase them out, to stop cutting trees down and to build up finance commitments in concrete ways to tackle this at the source. Otherwise, we’re just going to see more devastation and damage.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: So, Nikki, before we conclude, just on another topic, the landmark decision taken by the International Court of Justice in July, the obligations of states under international law on the question of climate change?
NIKKI REISCH: This is the first COP after a historic decision, as you say, by the world’s highest court on what countries’ climate obligations are, that lays — that lays to rest any argument that the biggest polluters don’t have a legal obligation. Climate action is not an opinion. It’s a legal obligation, that countries have a duty, under multiple sources of law, not just these climate conventions, but customary law, human rights law, to prevent climate harm and to step up action to protect human rights in the face of climate impacts, and that that law is the yardstick for progress here, not what they promised last year or the year before. They will be measured against those legal obligations. And we’re seeing that come into the — set a new benchmark for these talks. It’s high time to end the accountability gap. That ambition gap is not just about stepping up promises and pledges, but committing to action in line with law and science.
AMY GOODMAN: Nikki Reisch is director of the Climate and Energy Program at the Center for International Environmental Law. Thanks so much, Nikki, for joining us.
NIKKI REISCH: Thank you so much.
AMY GOODMAN: Coming up, as climate negotiations continue here in Belém, Brazil, we speak to Sônia Guajajara, Brazil’s first Indigenous peoples minister. Stay with us.
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AMY GOODMAN: “Llama,” performed by MAKU Soundsystem at our Democracy Now! studio.
