This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: We turn now to Iran. The U.S.-based Human Rights Activists News Agency now says that since protests erupted on January 8th, more than 4,900 people have been killed, and that may be an undercount. A new Amnesty International report on lethal force used against peaceful protesters documented how Iranian security forces stationed on rooftops fired rifles and shotguns loaded with metal pellets, often aiming for the head and torso.
AMY GOODMAN: President Trump had repeatedly threatened to intervene if protesters in Iran continued to be killed. But speaking today in Davos, he claimed Iran’s leaders are open to negotiation.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Iran does want to talk. And we’ll talk.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Last week, a U.S. aircraft carrier stationed in the South China Sea began heading toward the Persian Gulf.
Meanwhile, on Wednesday, Iran’s Foreign Minister Abbas Araghchi warned Iran will be, quote, “firing back with everything we have if we come under renewed attack. Araghchi’s invitation to the World Economic Forum in Davos was rescinded over the killing of protesters in Iran.
AMY GOODMAN: For more, we’re joined in our New York studio by Sahar Delijani, an internationally acclaimed Iranian author. Her debut novel, Children of the Jacaranda Tree, it’s been published in more than 75 countries, translated to nearly three dozen languages since it was released 2013. She was born in Tehran’s Evin Prison in 1983, after her parents, who were secular leftist political activists, were jailed by Iranian forces. One of her uncles was executed by the Iranian government in 1988. Her family migrated to California in 1996, 30 years ago.
Welcome to Democracy Now! It’s so important to have you with us. You were born in the Evin Prison. You’re here and now in the United States. As you look at what’s happening in Iran, can you describe what you understand is happening, and if you see these protests that are happening now across the country of Iran different from what happened in 2022?
SAHAR DELIJANI: Thanks so much for having me.
I think what has been unfolding in Iran, of course, as you said, is one of the largest mass killings of protesters that we have ever witnessed. And the only thing that’s comparable to it is the mass executions of 1988, when my uncle was executed along with thousands of other political prisoners. And another — and all these bodies were just dumped into mass graves. Nobody was allowed to hold funerals. And the same thing is happening again. As you said, like, we don’t even know the numbers of how many people have been killed this time. That number might never be verified, because just as the executions of 1988, we still don’t know how many people were executed, how many thousands.
And we all know that this is part of a long struggle of Iranian people to oust this regime, against tyranny, against dictatorship, against an authoritarian, theocratic regime, a military state. And what has been — of course, the first thing that I can say is just this level of violence that the regime has shown. But another thing, when the protests first started, we always had protests where they would start in bigger cities, in Tehran and bigger cities, and this was one of the first times that they actually started in very small towns. Sometimes I had never even heard the name of that town.
And another thing that is also important to, I think, underline is that this is a working-class uprising. These are people who are coming from disenfranchised towns. These are people who have not — who barely are able to make it to the end of the month. And this is not just a question of now. This has been happening, partly due to sanctions, but also partly to this rampant corruption and mismanagement of the regime, and also because the Revolutionary Guards have taken over the economy, from every point of view. So, I think, in so many ways, this is finally — these are the people who were never part of our narrative. We never talked about the working class when we talked about Iran. So, this is now finally them coming out, and they’re saying, “We’re here, and this is not what we want.”
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And could you explain — you just said this: The Revolutionary Guard has taken over the economy. Could you explain what aspects of the economy they have taken over and how this occurred over the course of these decades since the Islamic Revolution?
SAHAR DELIJANI: I mean, they have basically taken over every possibility, in commerce, in, you know, pharmaceutical, medicine. Like, there’s just like — even, like, entertainment and restaurants, like everything. Like, you hear of people, and then the — it’s like a mafia system, you know? And it’s really hard to fight against them, because people have very little power.
And this has been happening for a long time, ever since this sort of — because we also have to take into account that this is a capitalist regime. It could be not as advanced as, you know, the American one, but this is still a capitalist regime. So, what happens is that, over time, the military, the Revolutionary Guards, which was supposed to just guard the revolution, in theory, just became stronger and stronger and stronger through the, you know, markets becoming free markets. And so, this is now 30, 35 years later, and this is the — we see the result of.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, you said earlier that this — at least it began as a working-class protest and focused principally on the economic conditions in Iran. But then it became — it seems to have become about many, many more things. So, if you could explain all of the issues that people are protesting against, much, much wider than the 2022 protests? And then, also, you drew an analogy between what happened in 1988, in which your own family suffered so greatly, and what’s happening now. What explains the brutality of the regime’s response in these protests?
SAHAR DELIJANI: I think — for one thing, I think all of these reasons that we have been talking about, economic reasons, the deep, deep repression that has been, you know, put on Iranian people for so many, so many decades, I think these reasons have always been there. Now, of course, the economic — there’s an economic collapse in Iran, so that reason has just become one of the biggest reasons now. But people have always been fighting against dictatorship for every reason possible, because, like, the Iranian regime has policed even the most intimate aspects of people’s lives, from the way they get dressed, what they eat, if they dance, if they sing, all of that, to the whole political stage, where they’re not able to assemble. And this is also against, you know, labor, labor rights workers, against union leaders. It has repressed every single person in the society.
And then, the Iranians have shown again and again and again that they are — they want an end to this, that the regime’s time with the Iranian people has long run out. And when I —you know, every time this type of violence happens, we’re always in shock, because I think a part of us still wants to believe that it’s not possible that the regime could kill its own people in this way. But we know that it is possible, not only in Iran, but all over the region. Assad did the same thing. So, it’s still the same regime. It’s the same regime that killed my uncle that’s killing all these young people on the streets today.
AMY GOODMAN: Sahar, if you can talk about the connection between the antiwar movement, the protests in Iran, and Israel’s war on Gaza, the significance of this moment that we are all witnessing, and where President Trump’s focus on Iran fits into all of this?
SAHAR DELIJANI: Yeah. So, I think one thing that we have to keep in mind is that this level of violence that has happened in Iran is coming after two years of genocide. And, you know, the level of violence has just raised so much in our region. And when we see massacre of people all over the region, I think it just shows to us that all of our struggles are connected, that there is no more just one — you know, fate of one country that matters. This is all connected. A free Iran must mean a free Palestine and must mean free Afghanistan, must mean free Syria and Egypt.
And I think what we have also witnessed, and what history has shown us, is that Trump is in no way interested in the Iranian people’s well-being and dignity and their rights to live a peaceful, happy, safe life. What they’re interested in is just their own interests. That’s what they want. Everybody knows that, I think. Or if they don’t, I mean, if they — they might pretend like, you know, they buy into this rhetoric of liberation. But we know what is behind it. We know it because it’s happening right before our eyes in Gaza, with not one Palestinian being present in, you know, shaping their own future. That’s going to happen to Iran, too, as it has happened to many of the countries that have gone through this sort of military intervention. So, I think the antiwar movements and pro-democracy movements, anti-dictatorship movements must go hand in hand.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And I wanted to ask you — you know, Democracy Now!, we spoke to the award-winning Iranian filmmaker Jafar Panahi recently, just last week, in fact, and he said to us that “the regime is shattered. It has fallen already: politically, ideologically, economically … From any aspect you can imagine, it’s fallen. It’s only a shell that is in existence.” And that also because it’s using force. What is your assessment of the strength of this regime? And the fact, as you point out, 1988, when Iran carried out these mass executions, 1988 was the year that an eight-year war with Iran and Iraq ended. And to what extent you think the overall threats against Iran, what role do they play now in these mass executions? In other words, is there a relationship between war, I mean, the country being under siege, or the regime, and its response internally?
SAHAR DELIJANI: Of course. I think all of these wars and threats of wars and for intervention, what it does is that it really solidifies the core, the hard core of the regime. They are — because they are put in a corner, it makes them unleash violence even more. It gives them sort of this green light, this permit, to unleash as much terror as they want.
And second is that wars and these sort of interventions, what they do is not necessarily — when, you know, Israel attacked Iran in June, it wasn’t necessarily weakening the regime. It was weakening a civil society. It was weakening this painful, slow labor of building power under surveillance and persecution. So, I think what is — what is important, to always realize that Israel is interested in a weak Iranian civil society, as is Iran, as is the Iranian regime.
And I think one thing I would like to add to what Jafar Panahi said is that the Iranian regime must lose any legitimacy it has, you know, in the international — in international eyes. The Iranian regime is not wanted by the people. And we must realize that this is a dictatorial force, and it is — you know, it is not a legitimate — anymore a legitimate governing force.
AMY GOODMAN: Sahar Delijani, we want to thank you so much for being with us, internationally acclaimed Iranian author. And you mentioned Jafar Panahi, and we’re going to talk about him right now, in the Oscar nominations.
The 2026 Oscar nominations have just been released. Nominees include several films we’ve covered on Democracy Now! Ryan Coogler’s film Sinners has been nominated for a record-breaking 16 times, including for best director and best picture, also Delroy Lindo for best supporting actor, and Michael Jordan. You can go to our website, Ryan Coogler’s interview with us. Other Oscar nominees include The Voice of Hind Rajab and It Was Just an Accident for best international feature film, Jafar Panahi’s film. And also for short film, Armed Only with a Camera: The Life and Death of Brent Renaud, for best short documentary. You can visit democracynow.org to see our segments on all of these films. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh. Thanks so much for joining us.
