This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: As protests continue in response to the fatal shootings of Renee Good and Alex Pretti by federal immigration agents in Minneapolis, a federal judge in Minnesota heard arguments Monday in a lawsuit filed by state officials, alongside the cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul, to halt Trump’s unprecedented deployment of thousands of federal immigration agents to the state. Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison, who was in court yesterday, has likened the deployment of ICE agents to a “federal invasion.” U.S. District Judge Kate Menendez questioned the Trump administration on whether its militarization of Minnesota is intended to, quote, “punish plaintiffs for adopting sanctuary laws and policies,” unquote. Attorney General Ellison spoke after the hourslong court hearing.
ATTORNEY GENERAL KEITH ELLISON: This is the single largest deployment of immigration officers in one place at one time, in a state that is not even in the top of immigration. What justifies the disproportionate flood? Nothing legitimate. But the president has been clear: retribution.
AMY GOODMAN: In a separate hearing later in the day, a Trump administration lawyer assured a Minneapolis federal judge that body-camera footage of Alex Pretti’s fatal shooting was being preserved by federal investigators. The lawyer did not specify whether the bodycam footage would be shared with Minnesota authorities, and did not confirm how many agents were wearing cameras at the time of the shooting. Minnesota state officials are urging the court to extend an emergency order prohibiting the Trump administration from destroying or altering evidence after Border Patrol agents shot Pretti dead. The federal government has blocked local investigators from reviewing the evidence, just like it did after the fatal shooting of Renee Good.
For more, we go to Minneapolis, where we’re joined by Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison.
Welcome back to Democracy Now!, Attorney General. If you could start off by talking about —
ATTORNEY GENERAL KEITH ELLISON: Glad to be with you, Amy. How are you?
AMY GOODMAN: It’s great to have you with us. Can you talk about what happened in court yesterday? And respond to — we had you on just on Friday. Now another killing of a Minnesotan. Can you respond to that killing, and what you demanded in court on Monday morning?
ATTORNEY GENERAL KEITH ELLISON: Well, first of all, Alex Pretti was an amazing man. He was an ICU nurse at the Veterans Administration Hospital. He devoted his life to caring for people who were people who defended America. And yet he was shot down in the streets of Minneapolis also trying to defend a woman who was thrown to the ground by ICE agents. So, I took it very personally when the secretary of homeland security defamed him, as did Bovino and others. And so, let me just state, say that.
I’ll also note that on Monday, our court hearing in the morning, our 9 a.m. court hearing, was really about saying that as Minnesota has the right to devote Minnesota resources to Minnesota activities, and we are not obligated to operate as extensions of ICE, then the federal government and ICE cannot then say, “Well, if you won’t do what we want you to do, we’re going to inundate your state with 4,000 agents. We’re going to raise all kind of problems and abuse people and do shootings, unauthorized entries into homes,” all, I mean, like massive abuses. And so, essentially, what we’re saying is the federal government cannot coerce us into doing it their way. Federalism and the structure of this country, the balance between state and federal power, cannot be maintained, as is constitutionally required under the 10th Amendment, if the federal government can try to bully a state out of what it could never get in a courtroom because they don’t have the right. So, that’s what the argument was all about. The judge was very thoughtful, very smart, asked the right questions, and I’m confident that we’ll get a good outcome. And if we don’t, then we’re going to continue to fight on.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Attorney General Ellison, I wanted to ask you about the decision of the authorities there, the federal authorities, to transfer out of state the agents involved in that shooting. The responsibility of local authorities in Minneapolis to investigate this shooting and how the transfer of these agents out of state affects that?
ATTORNEY GENERAL KEITH ELLISON: Feels like a cover-up to me. I mean, here’s the thing. And when we talk about the transfer of agents, let’s put Bovino in that category, as well. You know, one thing’s certainly true: The state government has the right to criminally charge anyone, including a federal agent, who commits a crime in our state. That is not even in serious question. I know the vice president said otherwise. He’s wrong. And he should correct the record, because he’s clearly wrong. But what the federal authorities seem to be doing in the three cases of the — of shootings here in Minnesota is to say, “Yeah, we kind of know that you have the right to prosecute us, so what we’re going to do is frustrate your capability of prosecuting us by grabbing evidence, by spiriting people away out of the state, by allowing our agents to wear masks so they’re never accountable.” This is the sort of tactic that they’re using. I think that they’re implicitly acknowledging our right to prosecute crimes, but they’re saying, “Well, yeah, if you can, because we’re going to mess with the evidence and everything else.” That appears to be what’s going on.
When it comes to Bovino, I think that the federal government is spectacularly hypocritical. They brought him here because he had a reputation for brutality and harsh tactics. They brought Bovino here because he was known to be mean and violent and hateful and would make his members act that way. Now that the people of Minnesota have protested and raised the roof on his brutal tactics, now they move him out of the way and say, “Oh, he’s gone now.” Well, you know, I guess — I guess I’ll say, you know, good riddance to Bovino, but the federal government doesn’t get any kudos for moving him.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: I also wanted to ask you about this letter that Attorney General Pam — U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi sent to your governor, Tim Walz, over the weekend, demanding three policy changes in exchange for a rollback of the aggressive tactics. One of those was demanding the Minnesota voter rolls. Your reaction to that? And why even raise that?
ATTORNEY GENERAL KEITH ELLISON: Well, it kind of tells the story. I think — I think you know, Juan, why. I mean, one thing’s for sure. She kind of said the quiet part out loud. This is clearly coercion. They’re using armed paramilitaries in mass to get what they could never get in a courtroom. We’re contesting all these things that were in her letter, including the voting roll issue, in court. We’re in court on these things. We’re saying, “No, you don’t have a right to those things.” We will battle this in court. We’re suing them. We’re fighting them now in court. But the federal government is saying, “Oh, yeah? Well, what do you say to 4,000 men, heavily armed, aiming guns at your people, wearing masks? What do you say to that?” This is the fundamental essence of coercion.
And I’ll tell you, there’s a lot of case law, Juan, where, you know, if Congress were to pass a law encroaching on state authority, or if there was an executive order encroaching on a state authority, courts would clearly say, “Oh, you can’t do that.” But what about a gun in your face? How could that possibly be OK, if a congressional statute or an executive court order could not be — could not intrude upon state prerogatives? I mean, this is the very essence of coercive behavior — a gun in the face, killing your citizens, shooting them, abusing them, beating them down, causing 50,000 Minnesotans and friends in the nine-degree-below weather to protest, to say, ”ICE out now.” I mean, this is an outrageous situation. That’s why I’m confident we’re going to win in court.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to get your response, Attorney General Ellison, to Tom Homan now being brought in, recorded in 2024 accepting a bag, a Cava bag — that’s the store — with $50,000 in cash from a pair of undercover agents who were posing as business executives. In exchange for the money, Homan reportedly offered to help them secure future government contracts. A bribery probe was opened, but Trump’s Department of Justice just shut down that probe. I mean, I don’t know what the legal theory is here. I mean, the federal government said they were investigating Minnesota residents for fraud, so they bring in someone who is, to say the least, under a cloud of fraud allegations. Is the idea it takes one to know one? But your response to not only that, but that Homan is known as one of the architects of family separation?
ATTORNEY GENERAL KEITH ELLISON: Well, it’s absurd, Amy, is what I think you’re pointing out. Well, let me just tell you — let me tell you who is under investigation: the governor, myself, the mayor. That’s who the federal — here’s who’s not under investigation: Tom Homan and Jonathan Ross and the agents who shot down and killed Alex Pretti. They’re not under investigation, from any evidence I can see.
Let me just say this about Homan. They don’t need — we don’t need to change the field marshal on this ICE invasion. We need to change the entire policy. We need to go back to the days before Operation Metro Surge, go back to those days when Minnesota was not under siege the way it is now. Let me just tell you, ordinarily, there’s about 80 ICE agents here, is what I’m told. There’s about 4,000 now. That’s a 4,900% increase in a few weeks, the largest in the history of America, the largest deployment. To what end? And so, if you don’t change that, what does it matter if you switch out Homan with his very dubious credentials, given his bad behavior? I mean, what — what difference does it make? This has got to — the policy must change. They have to stop Operation Metro Surge, and they got to stop it now.
And I’ll tell you this: I believe just like Portland and Oregon and Los Angeles and Chicago were all precursors to what’s happening in Minnesota, I think Minnesota is a precursor to what they plan to have happen in many other places, including Maine. The state of Maine now is sort of in the bull’s-eye. And is Maine known for dramatic increases in immigration? No. It’s because the governor insists upon being the governor of Maine, and the president insists upon being the governor of Maine. So they’re at odds, because the governor says, “You know, we do — we treat our trans community like human beings here in Maine,” and the president says, “Oh, no, you don’t. And for your sass, I’m going to send ICE agents after you.” That’s what’s going on. It’s wrong. It’s unconstitutional. And we all, as Americans, have to stand together against it. And we’ve got to — and we need Congress to stand up against any increases in the ICE budget.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Attorney General, I’m wondering whether you’ve had a chance to talk to Mayor Jacob Frey of Minneapolis or the governor since their phone conversations yesterday with President Trump. And your sense of what they may be thinking now as the White House seeks to distance itself somewhat from the statements of Kristi Noem and of Bovino?
ATTORNEY GENERAL KEITH ELLISON: Yeah, we’ve been in communication. I haven’t had a chance to talk directly to the mayor, but I’ve been in communication with their offices, and we expect to talk today. Look, if they’re saying that they’re talking about leaving, that is certainly good news. If they’re open — if they’re going to have a — if they’re going to agree to a joint investigation to get to the truth of these two killings, and then there was a third killing of — a shooting of a Venezuelan man who didn’t die — we need to investigate all of them and many other crimes, as well — then I think that’s fine. I think that’s a good thing. But I need to — I’m at the point where I need to see it to believe it. I need to see reductions in this massive paramilitary force, and that’s what I need to see. Promises, promises, right? We’ll see.
AMY GOODMAN: Attorney General, who has Alex Pretti’s phone? Who has the video footage from the agents, if there is video footage? You’re well known around the country because you took the case of the murder of George Floyd when Hennepin County wouldn’t prosecute, and you ultimately had the police officers convicted. But right now the Trump administration is trying to stop Minnesota from also investigating. So, who has his phone? Where does this all stand? Have you had access to the crime site?
ATTORNEY GENERAL KEITH ELLISON: Well, yes, Minnesota investigators have had access to the crime site. I believe that immigration agents have that — have that phone and all the other materials, which is why we brought a motion Saturday night to stop them from altering, tampering or destroying evidence, and to preserve that evidence. That’s why we brought that motion for a TRO last Saturday and why we were in court yesterday. So, that’s what that’s all about.
It is my hope that the court does not believe the story of ICE. They change that story based on what’s convenient for them in the moment. I believe that if the court does not issue that order, that when we get to the point where we can charge this case, which I hope is very soon, that they’re going to start saying, “Oh, a video? What video?” I simply don’t believe them. And if you were to — I think you might — what you might want to do, and forgive me for offering suggestions on air like this, but you might want to get a police practices person, because what they will tell you is that there’s very, very serious questions about the way the gun — the way the gun was handled, the way the video has been handled, the way the crime scenes have been handled, and extreme unprofessional operation there. So, I mean, yes, we are very concerned about all these things.
And I do need to say that Hennepin County played a very vital and important role in the prosecution of the people who murdered George Floyd, and I do thank them.
AMY GOODMAN: I know you have to go, but I just wanted to bring in Georgetown law professor Stephen Vladeck, who co-authored a piece in The New York Times headlined “This May Be the Only Path to Accountability for the Minneapolis Shootings,” in the essay, writing, “The historical [backstop] for a lack of federal accountability, going all the way back to the founding, has been state law. States prosecuting federal officers.” Professor Vladeck, in this last minute that we have Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison on, can you summarize your argument and what you feel it would be critical for Minnesota to do right now?
STEPHEN VLADECK: Sure. And I think the attorney general already knows all of this even better than I do, Amy. But the argument, in a nutshell, is just that there’s no categorical bar to states using their courts, using their laws, whether it’s for damages or for criminal prosecutions, as a means of holding federal officers accountable. There are obstacles, and I think Attorney General Ellison is deeply familiar with those obstacles, but the obstacles can be surmounted, especially in cases in which there’s the kind of evidence you’ve just been talking about. And so, I think one of the questions here is whether, even if these prosecutions might be uphill battles, they’re better than nothing, when the federal government clearly is unwilling to provide any accountability for its own officers.
AMY GOODMAN: And, Keith Ellison, Minnesota attorney general, on this issue of states’ rights, it seems that conservatives always talk about states’ rights, but when it comes to — and maybe Attorney General Bondi really laid it out — except when it comes to voting rights and voting rolls. They’re deeply concerned states are the obstacle to — for example, President Trump’s obsession with saying that the elections are fraudulent, so he wants to control those voting rolls. Your response?
ATTORNEY GENERAL KEITH ELLISON: Well, they were Second Amendment advocates right up until the shooting of Alex Pretti, weren’t they? Now suddenly they’re like, “Oh, shoot that guy. He has a gun.” He didn’t pull it out. He had a license to have it. But, you know, they are completely pliable. Their real rule of thumb is whatever works for us is OK, whatever that works for anyone else is not. That’s when it comes to anything and everything. And so, that’s what we’re facing. This is the essence of oppression.
You know, I want to thank Professor Vladeck for the great article that he wrote. I read it, and it was very, very helpful. And I’m glad that we’re really illuminating, and actually normalizing, the idea that states have the right to prosecute anybody and investigate anybody if they commit crimes in that state. This is a very important principle. And as I look across this country and I see the outrageous behavior by these immigration agents, I think the professor is absolutely right: The states are the last refuge for any chance at justice.
AMY GOODMAN: Could you bring charges against the killers of Alex Pretti, against the killer of Renee Good?
ATTORNEY GENERAL KEITH ELLISON: Well, when you say “could,” the answer is, yes, we could. I, as a prosecutor, am not going to come up on anybody’s TV show and say I’m going to charge somebody, before the investigation is done, at least as good of an investigation as we can do. So I don’t have any news for anyone today. But when you say “could” we do it, yes, we could. It’s been done before. And that’s kind of the premise of Professor Vladeck’s article. It is possible. It can be done. And Idaho was going to prosecute the people — the man who killed Randy Weaver’s wife, and they decided, for their own reasons, not to go forward. But they were cleared to go forward. There are other examples, as well. And as a matter of fact, if the federal government is going to say, “We get to commit crimes in your state with impunity,” the state can say, “Well, no, you don’t.”
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Steve, I wanted to ask you: How has Supreme Court made it more difficult to hold federal officers responsible for damages in federal lawsuits for violating our constitutional rights?
STEPHEN VLADECK: So, you know, back in 1971, Juan, the Supreme Court had a case called Bivens, where the justices said, all things being equal, it’s actually better for federal law to provide remedies when federal officers violate the Constitution than when state officers do, and, in that case, allowed a New York citizen to bring a damages claim directly against the six federal officers who had broken into his house without a warrant, who had arrested him, all of the above.
In the fifty — gosh, now — five years since Bivens was decided, the Supreme Court has actually done a complete about-face and has made Bivens virtually impossible to bring these kinds of damages claims, including a case I argued in the Supreme Court in 2019 and lost, arising out of the cross-border shooting by a Border Patrol agent of an unarmed 15-year-old Mexican national. And, you know, the theory behind the Supreme Court’s rulings in all of these cases is that courts shouldn’t have the power to provide damages remedies against federal officers without some kind of express authorization from Congress.
But, you know, as Justice Harlan pointed out in Bivens itself, that makes no sense, because the whole reason why we have constitutional rights is to hold the elected branches of the federal government accountable. To have the ability to enforce those rights turn on the acquiescence of those branches really converts those rights into paper tigers. And so, part of the problem we’re seeing in Minneapolis, in St. Paul, in Portland, across the country, is that the Supreme Court has really hollowed out the specter of damages remedies, which means not only that you can’t recover after the fact when federal officers violate your rights, Juan, it also means there’s nothing deterring these officers from violating their rights. And that’s a big problem that Congress can and should fix. What Barry Friedman and I argued in our op-ed was, until that happens, states really have to be the last line of defense.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to continue this discussion with you, Professor Stephen Vladeck, but we want to say goodbye to Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison. This is Democracy Now! We’ll be back with Professor Vladeck in a minute.
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AMY GOODMAN: “This Mess” by Lucy Parnell and Natalie Kate Barowitz.
