This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman.
On Capitol Hill, the heads of ICE, U.S. Customs and Border Protection and U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services testified Tuesday before the House Homeland Security Committee. House Democrats repeatedly grilled them over the recent killings of Renee Good and Alex Pretti in Minneapolis, as well as President Trump’s overall mass deportation campaign and the violent tactics used by federal agents across the country.
The hearing came as Democratic lawmakers continue to oppose new funding for the Department of Homeland Security unless Republicans agree to their demands to rein in federal immigration agents. This could lead to another partial government shutdown.
This is Democrat Shri Thanedar of Michigan questioning the immigration officials.
REP. SHRI THANEDAR: Did the ICU nurse Alex Pretti deserve to die?
RODNEY SCOTT: I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation, sir.
REP. SHRI THANEDAR: Did Renee Good deserve to die?
TODD LYONS: Sir, I can’t comment on ongoing investigations.
REP. SHRI THANEDAR: Director Lyons, do you agree with Secretary Noem and Vice President Vance’s characterization of Renee Good as a domestic terrorist?
TODD LYONS: Sir, I can’t speak to their comments as that they are their own, but as an ongoing investigation, I can’t speak to that.
REP. SHRI THANEDAR: Director Lyons, what did your agent mean when he said, “You raise your voice, I erase your voice,” in the video just that we have seen, all of us have seen?
TODD LYONS: Sir, I am not aware of that video that you have, sir. I can’t comment on what that officer said.
AMY GOODMAN: During Tuesday’s House hearing, Texas Democrat Al Green called for Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem to be prosecuted.
REP. AL GREEN: The secretary should be investigated, right along with those officers who are out there engaged in this ungodly conduct. She should be investigated. And in my opinion, based upon my observation, secretary should not only be investigated, the Secretary should be prosecuted, right along with those officers. This man did not brandish. This man was not armed. This man did not attempt to hurt those officers. They should all be prosecuted. And you persons associated with the Trump administration
CHAIR: Gentleman’s time has expired.
REP. AL GREEN: — that said, “Lock her up,” I say lock her up.
AMY GOODMAN: Texas Congressman Al Green will join us in a moment along with Democrat Delia Ramirez of Illinois. But first, this is an excerpt of her remarks at Tuesday’s hearing.
REP. DELIA RAMIREZ: Mr. Lyons, I want to start with you, and I want to talk about ICE, because under your leadership, ICE has shot and killed Silverio Villegas González and Renee Good, violated nearly 100 court orders in January alone. You’ve used banned chokeholds in more than 40 cases, engaged in warrantless arrests despite of a consent decree. And you used children as bait to put 3,800 children in detention. You created traps for people at immigration court who are following the law and doing it the legal way. And you broke the law by entering into people’s homes without a judicial warrant, in violation of the Fourth Amendment.
Now, let’s talk about you, Mr. Scott, and CBP next. Under your leadership, CBP has attempted to execute Marimar Martinez, shooting her five times and not releasing the footage, that you should release so that we can see the evidence, murdered Alex Pretti, used chemical agents dozens of times in Chicago after a judge ordered you to stop, conducted warrantless surveillance and racial profiling and acted with total disrespect and disregard for the law while engaging in roving patrols, plate switching, dangerous traffic maneuvers and observer intimidation. Again, criminals act with that total disregard for the law, and we continue to see it.
You would both have us talk about respect for your mission and your agents, but your agencies are unaccountable paramilitary forces, and I have just as much respect for you as I do for the last white men who put on masks to terrorize communities of color. I have no respect for the inheritors of the Klan hood and the slave patrol. Those activities were immoral then and criminal, and so are yours.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Democratic Congresswoman Delia Ramirez of Illinois. She’s joining us now from Capitol Hill along with Texas Congressman Al Green.
We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Congressmember Ramirez, let’s begin with you. The information that you were able to gather yesterday by speaking with the heads of the three major immigration agencies? You began by talking with Lyons, or questioning him, the head of ICE right now.
REP. DELIA RAMIREZ: Yeah, I mean, let’s be frank. We had the three of them come before us; a couple of minutes later, called into break, because I think the administration probably thought that they were being too honest, perhaps, in some cases, when they were saying that they had to respect maybe court orders or, you know, when Eric Swalwell asked the questions about how many people under Amazon have been killed, and they kept saying no, as referencing to Todd Lyons and the fact that he has talked about people being seen as shipments in an Amazon package.
Look, the point is this: I looked at evil in the eye. These three directors are responsible for what we are seeing around the country, whether it’s in detention, whether it’s in the streets or even in the courts. Mr. Edlow, who is responsible to help navigate the immigration system, is using, weaponizing this agency to ensure that children are being arrested and put in these cages. What we saw were three people who have, certainly, with the understanding of what they’re doing, chosen to violate law, to operate unconstitutionally, to harm people and to think that they can get away with it. It’s why it was so important for us to put on the record every single thing that has happened under each of these three agencies. And it’s why I continue to say I’m not going to talk about reforming DHS, and I said it to their face. It must be dismantled, and ICE has to be abolished. It’s the only way forward.
AMY GOODMAN: What do you make of the ICE — the acting ICE Director Todd Lyons declaring, “We’re only getting started”?
REP. DELIA RAMIREZ: That was a warning. It was a warning to the American people that they’re not going to stop, that they believe that they have full impunity to continue to operate as thugs, as Klansmen, and continue to harm the people. They believe that it doesn’t matter if you’re an immigrant or you are an observer, that they have the full authority to keep harming people. And they think they’re going to get away with it, which is why, Amy, it was really important for me, at the end of my remarks, to remind them they will not always be in power. There will be a day of accountability, and I will do everything my power for us to get to that place. I guarantee it.
AMY GOODMAN: Senator Chris Murphy warns that without reform, people are going to get killed. I wanted to ask you, given that ICE already has access to $75 billion, does a shutdown actually stop the violent operations being conducted by DHS? Friday the 13th, this Friday, is the end of the authorization for more money for DHS. Is that right? And what do you say —
REP. DELIA RAMIREZ: Yeah, that’s right.
AMY GOODMAN: — to Democrats who are joining with the Republicans and saying continue the funding?
REP. DELIA RAMIREZ: Well, look, let’s be very clear: People are already dying right now. And they’re not just dying in tier cities. They’re not just being dragged out of their cars, pregnant women. They’re not just tear-gassing 1-year-old children. They’re also killing people, letting people die in detention. That’s already happening.
So I think it’s very important for us to be very clear that this is a moment for Democrats to demonstrate that they’re going to use every single tool at our disposal and leverage. And I’m going to tell you, Amy, the best way we stop this is shutting it down. Let it shut down on Friday. Let Republicans have to meet with us. Require them to come to the table, because we should not just be talking about the $11 billion. We should be talking about every single dollar that this agency has been using to execute people, to harm people and to send people to places like Salvador and CECOT. This is a moment for us to use it. And I’m going to keep saying, “Shut it down. Shut it down. Shut it down.”
AMY GOODMAN: So, you’re not just saying shut ICE down. You’re saying shut the Department of Homeland Security down.
REP. DELIA RAMIREZ: Shut the entire operation down. That’s exactly right. Let’s be very clear. And for those of you that are worried about FEMA, for those of you that are worried about Coast Guard, under Kristi Noem, these agencies have already seen cuts to their funding. Many of them are not seeing the grants allowed to go into many of these cities that desperately need it because of weather, natural disaster. They’re already taking their money. It’s not like giving them more money is actually going to go to FEMA and Coast Guard.
We need to shut it down. And then, I think, it’s going to force them to come to the table and have a serious conversation of us — with us about how we actually move forward, without the killings, without the terrorizing, without the detaining of children. I have a 14-year-old eighth grader at the same detention center where there was a measles outbreaks. Enough is enough. Democrats have a leverage. Shame on us if we continue to fail.
AMY GOODMAN: This is your colleague, Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California, also questioning the acting ICE Director Todd Lyons.
REP. ERIC SWALWELL: A couple nights ago, I met with a woman who works as a cashier at a grocery store, and I told her I was coming to see you, Mr. Lyons. And she said, “Will you ask him” — and she didn’t want to give her name. She was terrified to give her name. But she said, “When I get off my shift around midnight and I walk through the parking lot to my car,” she said, “if somebody rolls up in an unidentified van and gets out wearing all black and their faces covered, and they don’t have any identification, and they ask me to get into the van, how do I know who they are?” How does she know, Mr. Lyons? How does she know if they’re an ICE agent or bad guys?
TODD LYONS: Sir, ICE agents have identifiable placards on their uniforms, as well as their badges, Representative. But you won’t see ICE agents rolling through the parking lots and just snatching someone up. ICE does intelligence-driven targeted enforcement operations.
REP. ERIC SWALWELL: Well, Mr. Homan and others have said that they target individuals based on the color of their skin and the accents that they speak, and that’s why people are running through the fields and factories where they work.
AMY GOODMAN: And this is Democratic Congressman Lou Correa, also of California, questioning acting ICE head Todd Lyons.
REP. LOU CORREA: Are you surveilling U.S. citizens today?
TODD LYONS: No, sir.
REP. LOU CORREA: Those people protesting, practicing this First Amendment right, photos of them, data taken, they’re not being placed in any kind of a database?
TODD LYONS: There is no database for protesters, sir.
REP. LOU CORREA: One of your officers in Maine said to one of the individuals protesting, “We’re going to put your face in a little database.” What does that mean? Do you have a little database —
TODD LYONS: No, sir.
REP. LOU CORREA: — of Americans?
TODD LYONS: No, sir, we don’t.
REP. LOU CORREA: Then, what do you think your ICE agent was doing to this individual when he said those statements?
TODD LYONS: I can’t speak for that individual, sir, but I can assure you there is no database that’s tracking United States citizens.
AMY GOODMAN: Acting ICE director. Congressmember Al Green, I want to turn to you. Both you, as well as Delia Ramirez — well, Delia Ramirez has called for the impeachment of Kristi Noem, the homeland security secretary. You’ve said she should be impeached and prosecuted. Why?
REP. AL GREEN: Impeachment is not enough. She’s a part of a crime. She’s a part of a cover-up. She knows that a felony was committed. She has tried her best to pin this rap on the person who was murdered. I think that we cannot settle for impeachment. I’m going to vote for it, but I think she needs to be locked up. She should be prosecuted. Those officers should be prosecuted. This man was shot in the back. He was shot nine to 10 times, depending on who’s counting. This is unacceptable behavior. But more than this, it’s criminal behavior. We don’t allow this.
The president is grooming us. He is conditioning us. He wants us to be ready for when he’s to make his departure. And we are now being groomed to accept it and understand that this police force, that he now has total control of, a secret police — they wear masks. They don’t identify themselves. They pick people up off the street and whisk them away to distant places without letting family, friends and others know where they are. This is not the kind of America we want to live in, but this is the kind of America we’re already into. This is more than authoritarianism. This is a de facto dictatorship.
AMY GOODMAN: Congressmember Al Green, you are from Texas.
REP. AL GREEN: I am.
AMY GOODMAN: Texas is where there are ICE jails that house children, that house adults, where there’s a measles outbreak. What are you calling for?
REP. AL GREEN: I’m calling for ICE to cease and desist. And that’s just a kind way of saying don’t do these dastardly deeds. Don’t have children, babies — don’t have these babies taken into custody. You said you were going to — you have to deal with the worst of the worst. Are children the worst of the worst? Do you really mean — when you say that you’re going to have this secret list of people, are you surveilling people in this country, as one of my colleagues asks? This is unacceptable. What’s happening in Texas is unacceptable, but it’s happening across the country now. It’s not just Texas. We were looking at Minneapolis. That’s a long way from Texas, and two people died there.
We have an opportunity now, we the people. We the people have to stand up. Peaceful protest is the way to deal with this kind of behavior. And I say peaceful protest, because if you do something other than peaceful, then that other thing becomes the news. Let’s have peaceful protest. Let’s make sure that we tell people that we the people will have the last word. We won’t allow Donald Trump to take over the White House, dismantle it, rebuild it. This is the people’s house. You can’t do that. He doesn’t have that kind of authority, and we shouldn’t allow him to have it by virtue of being silent. It’s time for we the people to continue to stand.
I commend all of the people who have been marching and protesting. This is the way that this country was founded. It’s as old as the pilgrims landing at Plymouth Rock, as contemporary as the farmers coming to Washington, D.C., on their tractors, complaining about what was happening to their land. And this is needed. That’s when Dr. King stood on the Mall and gave his “I Have a Dream” speech. We have to engage in peaceful protest. Litigation is fine. Protestation is also a part of the methodology by which we will bring justice back to America.
AMY GOODMAN: Let’s go back to Tuesday’s hearing. This is the New Jersey Democratic Congressmember LaMonica McIver.
REP. LAMONICA McIVER: You are here, Mr. Lyons, because white people are being — are getting shot in the face and chest when the cameras are rolling, because now my Republican colleagues care about optics. But when Keith Porter Jr., a Black American citizen, a son, a father and a man loved by many, was killed by an off-duty ICE agent on New Year’s Eve, there were no hearings. So this is for him today. In my district, Jean Wilson Brutus, a Haitian immigrant, a beloved family man, died within 24 hours of being in ICE custody. He is just one of more than 30 people who have died in ICE custody last year. This is for all of them, every human being your rogue, out-of-control agency has hurt, hunted down, imprisoned, killed and continue to hold hostage, even after they have agreed to be deported. We know this administration doesn’t care about protecting people or sparing lives. We all see so plainly what you are doing, what you have been doing to Black and Brown folks, immigrants, people silenced in the shadows, now in broad daylight to people peacefully rejecting your cruel agenda in the streets, which is their right to do.
AMY GOODMAN: So, that is Congressmember McIver, LaMonica McIver, who’s been brought up on charges by the Trump administration after going to Delaney Hall in Newark, New Jersey, to investigate what’s happening to detained people there and trying to protect the mayor there, who was doing the same thing, Mayor Ras Baraka of Newark. I want to go back to Congressmember Delia Ramirez, before I ask Al Green about Black History Month, and ask you — the leaders of the House and the Senate, Democratic leaders, Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries, seem to be backing off a demand that these agents should not be masked. Jeffries said, “Certainly, I think there’s agreement … no masks should be deployed in an arbitrary and capricious fashion.” Are you demanding that they never wear masks?
REP. DELIA RAMIREZ: I think that the American people have demanded that no masks means no masks. I don’t care if it’s partial masks or if it’s a particular situation. No other law enforcement is using masks. Those of us that are in public service, that every single day are standing up for the American people, we’re not wearing a mask. We also understand that it poses a threat to do the job we do. I’ve seen the calls that have come into my office since yesterday. The point is, when we say no masks, we mean no masks.
You have directors under oath yesterday, Amy, who lied under oath repeatedly and then talked about that we haven’t even seen fully what they’re capable of. It has to stop. You don’t end a paramilitary police when you allow them to cover their face, to harm people, and then go to church with that person, or maybe that family, next-door neighbor, the next day, as if they’re holier than holy themselves. So, I think the point is, when we say no masks, we mean no masks. And I really hope that our leadership is in a position to strongly word this and mean it. We have to get those masks off immediately.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you, Congressmember Delia Ramirez of Illinois, the first Latina congressmember representing that state, the daughter of Guatemalan immigrants.
