This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: The death toll in Iran has reached at least 1,300 as the U.S. and Israeli war enters its seventh day. Massive explosions shook the capital Tehran overnight as the city’s 10 million residents endured the most intense night of bombing. Iran continues to retaliate by launching attacks on Israel and Gulf nations allied with the United States. On Thursday, President Trump told Axios he needs to be personally involved in selecting Iran’s next leader, just as he was in Venezuela.
Meanwhile, Israel is escalating attacks on Lebanon after ordering the entire population of southern Lebanon to flee or face death. In a video shared on Thursday, Israel’s far-right Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich threatened to turn areas of Lebanon into another Gaza.
BEZALEL SMOTRICH: [translated] We are now on the northern border, after the IDF instructed all residents of the area to evacuate. You wanted to bring hell upon us? You brought hell upon yourselves. The Dahiyeh will look like Khan Younis. Our northern residents will live in quiet, peace and security.
AMY GOODMAN: Displaced residents of Lebanon say they’ve left everything behind without knowing when or if they will be able to return to their homes. This is Aliyeh Hijazi, a mother of 10 who fled southern Lebanon.
ALIYEH HIJAZI: [translated] They said they were going to strike Dahiyeh, so we left. And here we are sitting in the street, like you can see. Now we don’t know where we’re supposed to go, where we should go, honestly. We don’t have any shelter to stay. Brother, you know what I mean?
I have 10 children. I don’t know where my children are. They are displaced. I don’t know where my children are. I have four sons and six daughters. Only this girl is with me, me and my husband. I don’t know about the others. Each one is staying somewhere different.
Everyone is living except us. We’re not really living. I was 6 years old, and I lived through the war in 1971, 1982 and 2000-something. And it’s still wars, wars, wars. When are we going to be done with wars? We’re not going to be done, brother. I swear we’re not going to be done.
AMY GOODMAN: We go now to Beirut, where we’re joined by Lylla Younes. She’s an investigative journalist and writer based in Beirut. Her new piece for Drop Site News is headlined “Mass Expulsion in Lebanon as Israel Expands War: ‘We Don’t Know Where to Go.’”
Lylla, thanks so much for being with us. If you can start off by just describing what’s happening on the ground as tens of thousands of people are told to leave their homes, the entire area of southern Lebanon, which also includes Tyre, Lebanon’s second-largest city?
LYLLA YOUNES: Yeah. So, it all began on late Sunday night into Monday morning. It kind of — the beginning of it was marked by six very loud airstrikes that shook Beirut, waking many of us up, and we all knew that the war here had escalated once again. Since then, Israel first issued evacuation warnings for 50 villages, then 80 villages, and then completely, you know, said, “We are evacuating all villages south of the Litani River.” And then, yesterday, chaos once again when we heard that they’re also issuing evacuation orders for Dahiyeh.
As you heard the individuals who you just soundbited, you know, people are basically fleeing north with nowhere to go. Shelters are filling up rapidly. People are sleeping on the pavement in the winter nights. And it’s completely unclear, you know, when this is going to end.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And also, the Lebanese prime minister, Nawaf Salam, has actually said that any retaliation or military action by Hezbollah against Israel is not sanctioned by the government. Could you talk about the government’s response to the Israeli attack?
LYLLA YOUNES: Yeah, absolutely. So, Nawaf Salam came into power after the 66 days of escalated fighting in the fall of 2024 on a mandate, really, to disarm Hezbollah in the south. And that mandate was, of course, coming from the U.S., which does fund the Lebanese army, as well as from the Gulf states. The hope, of course, is that, you know, the Americans and the Gulf states ultimately help fund not only the reconstruction of southern Lebanon, but Lebanon has been embroiled for years in an economic crisis, since 2019. And so, that investment has been promised to Lebanon on the condition that it disarms Hezbollah.
So, Nawaf Salam, along with his supporters, have tried very hard for the past year to kind of push this agenda. We’ve seen the army, along with the United Nations peacekeepers stationed in the south, release footage of, you know, Hezbollah tunnels that they’ve discovered, weapons storage sites that they intend to demolish.
And yet, you know, what we’re seeing here is quite a blow to those plans. Hezbollah clearly maintains a significant military capacity, even south of the Litani River. They are engaging in active fighting with the Israelis. They’re shooting rockets towards Israel missile defense systems and so on. And so, you know, this obviously doesn’t bode well for Nawaf’s agenda.
And I think that with this latest move, calling Hezbollah’s acts in Lebanon illegal, even, you know, making claims, saying that he now wants to start pursuing them, asking the army to even arrest people who are shooting rockets into Israel, is him kind of trying to signal to the international community that he continues to stand by that mandate. However, you know, we’re hearing now from the Israelis and the Americans that they want more. They don’t want “symbolic actions,” quote-unquote, from the Lebanese government. They really want to see the army confront the Hezb, which is — which is quite a daunting prospect, right? We’re talking about, you know, what could look ultimately like a civil war, if such a thing were to take place.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And what’s your sense of the intention here of Israel? Are they actually going to try to occupy and hold Lebanese territory?
LYLLA YOUNES: They’ve said that they intend to occupy at least 15 kilometers. They want to — into southern Lebanon. We’re talking about dozens of villages. And this is in addition to — I think it’s really, really important to emphasize that Israel is already occupying land in southern Lebanon. After the 66 days of fighting, they occupied five different points within southern Lebanon. They’re all up on hills, from which they can send drones to surveil the people of the south. And so, you know, this is kind of in addition to what really has already been an occupation. They’re now saying that they want to push in. They want to create a buffer zone. And so, that is kind of their intention. Whether or not they’ll be able to do it, of course, at this very moment, unclear.
However, I should add that, you know, the people of the south will tell you, I think the vast majority of them, they fear, even prior to all of these recent years of war, another occupation of southern Lebanon. It would not be the first. Southern Lebanon was occupied — it was a brutal occupation — from the years of 1982 to 2000, liberation in 2000. And so people have that, the memory of that occupation, very fresh in their minds. In interviews that I had with people in the south, they frequently point to what recently happened in Syria, when the south of that country was disarmed following the fall of the Assad regime. You know, Israeli forces swept into the Golan Heights, took a lot more land, including land with very rich water resources, blew up homes, blocked people from their farmland. And so, you know, there’s great, great fear among the people of the south that this is to be repeated again.
AMY GOODMAN: Arab and Muslim leaders, I want to talk about them. But first, earlier today, the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Volker Türk warned about the situation in Lebanon.
VOLKER TÜRK: At the moment, with these blanket, massive displacement orders, we are talking here about hundreds and thousands of people. Our colleagues on the ground hear every day about the anguish that people face about not knowing where to go, not knowing how long it will take. Obviously, this raises serious concern under international humanitarian law, and in particular when it comes to issues around forced transfer.
AMY GOODMAN: Respond to the human rights leader Volker Türk’s comments.
LYLLA YOUNES: Sorry, Amy? I don’t think I heard you.
AMY GOODMAN: Lylla, can you respond to Volker Türk’s comments?
LYLLA YOUNES: Yeah, I mean, I think that what he’s saying, it’s very clear that this is illegal. This is ultimately — I mean, you know, we’re not talking about issuing a warning for a building. We’re talking about issuing warnings for the evacuation of an entire — of massive, massive segments of the country. I think every — the word on everyone’s mouths here is ethnic cleansing. The southern suburbs alone are home to half a million people. Those people are all now fleeing north.
And I’d like to tell you the story of one of them. In my article, I write about Mustafa Arout, who is the mukhtar, another Arabic word for local leader, of the village of Mais al-Jabal on the border, you know? And I think the story of him and his young relatives is really one that I think encapsulates the situation very well, which is that, you know, he got the call to evacuate from the Israelis. He packs up with his family. He begins to head north in the middle of the night, nowhere to go. He gets to Saida, when I invited — I talked to him when he’s just reached Saida. It’s taken him more than 12 hours on the road. He’s fasting. It’s Ramadan. He tells me that he’s going to go perhaps to Deir al-Zahrani, which is a village that also has an evacuation order, promises no safety. That is where he ended up staying the night, despite an airstrike there.
And then, on the way there, he learns that two of his young relatives were killed. These two young relatives, Haidar and Ruqaya, ages 2 and 4, were actually already living displaced. They were living displaced in the village of Al-Sultanieh in the south. And so they’re living displaced because their home in Mais al-Jabal was destroyed. And as they’re picking up their things, their mother is carrying her children, about to leave the house and flee, and an Israeli airstrike, you know, hits this home of these displaced people.
So, you know, this idea — so, what the U.N. commissioner is saying is absolutely correct. I mean, this is a forced transfer. I mean, I think that even though we’re seeing some people, like the people of the village of Alma al-Shaab, say, “We’re not leaving,” some people, the Dahiyeh, saying, “We’re not leaving,” you know, the fact that this order is so sweeping means that Israel could potentially, you know, come and say, “Oh, well, if we kill civilians, well, we issued an order for them. So, you know, we’re not responsible for civilian deaths,” which is ludicrous, given the conditions here, the lack of housing and the fact that people are kind of being asked to mass flee an entire region of a country.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking to Lylla Younes on the ground in Beirut, Lebanon. We’re also joined by Omar Shakir, the new executive director of DAWN. On Thursday, DAWN urged Iran to file a declaration granting the International Criminal Court jurisdiction over crimes committed in the U.S. and Israeli strikes on schools and hospitals. Omar is former Israel and Palestine director at Human Rights Watch. He’s joining us from Amman, Jordan. This whole issue of international law, Omar, if you can talk about how it applies to what we’re seeing with Israel and U.S.’s thousands of strikes on Iran, begun on Saturday, and the thousands of strikes on Lebanon, as we’re just hearing Lylla describe?
OMAR SHAKIR: Absolutely. Look, I mean, there is more and more evidence emerging every single day of grave war crimes being carried out by the United States and Israel in Iran, in Lebanon and across the region. International criminal law has developed mechanisms that can provide accountability for these crimes, but it requires states to take particular actions.
So, what DAWN is calling for now is for the Iranian government, as well as other affected states in the region, to file a declaration to give the International Criminal Court jurisdiction to look into serious crimes committed on their territory since February 28th. States do not need to be members of the International Court to file this declaration. In fact, both Ukraine and Palestine followed this particular route and ultimately ended up ending up with the issuance of arrest warrants against perpetrators involved in the perpetration of very serious crimes. There is action these governments who have been claiming and citing war crimes abuses — they can take these actions to provide a pathway to justice. They should also be securing evidence. They should be providing access to and engaging with human rights fact finders, including the U.N. Office of Human Rights, that was cited earlier, as well as commissions of inquiries that currently exist for Israel, Palestine and for Iran.
So, at the end of the day, the abuses we are seeing are harrowing, but there are mechanisms. The U.S. has no veto on those mechanisms. What is required is political will by these governments to ensure a pathway to accountability.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: But, Omar, some would say that, yes, the United States has no ability to veto, but it just simply has ignored international law and has faced really no consequences. So why should Iran even try to go through the formalities of these — of requesting this kind of action by the international legal community?
OMAR SHAKIR: Look, I think, Juan, if you look at other contexts around the world, the mere fact of arrest warrants can have a deterrent effect. Certainly in covering Israel-Palestine for many years, we’ve seen that reality. The only thing that has really led to any sort of, you know, Israeli government pullback has been — has been the threat of accountability or action. For example, the Palestinian village of Khan al-Ahmar in the West Bank, one of the reasons why it has not been demolished and destroyed was that there was a warning issued by the International Criminal Court. And according to Israeli officials, after the fact, they noted that that served as a deterrent. We’ve also seen, when action was taken by states in Europe and around the world around the EU-Israel trade agreement, we saw them ease up the restrictions on the blockade in Gaza.
So, ultimately, it’s easy for us to be skeptical when we see what’s happening in the world, and indeed what we’re seeing is very much a threat to the rules-based international order, but that order still has tools available to it, but it requires actions to be taken by states. So we have reasons to be skeptical, but in the face of, you know, dozens of schoolgirls and teachers blown to pieces, in the face of, again, more than a dozen attacks on hospitals in Iran, we’re seeing the same playbook from Gaza, there that led to a genocide, being unfurled in Iran, in ways, in Lebanon. But we have action that we can take, and it’s critical that states take it. It may not stop the abuses, but it could have an effect. And at this point, what we need is action.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And what about this whole issue of the Trump administration, in particular, actually going after the human rights monitors or the legal community that is involved in making these decisions? I’m thinking of Francesca Albanese, of course, but also the judges of the International Criminal Court.
OMAR SHAKIR: The United States has certainly issued really draconian sanctions on prosecutors and judges, as well as Palestinian human rights organizations, U.N. special procedures. Those are absolutely having an effect on those organizations. But at the same time, the International Criminal Court is continuing to do its work. It has already issued arrest warrants for Prime Minister Netanyahu and former Defense Minister Yoav Gallant for crimes against humanity and war crimes committed in Gaza. There are ongoing investigations in other files. Francesca and the Palestinian human rights organizations have not stopped their work. They’re continuing to document abuses. They’re continuing to issue reports. They’re continuing to be loud and vocal.
At the end of the day, Juan, it is the sign of weakness when instead of engaging with facts, instead of defending your positions, when you attack the messenger. And ultimately, those can — those effects can be significant. But we are very lucky to have incredibly strong human rights defenders and mechanisms that are responding to this moment. So it’s critical we give them the chance to succeed.
And what governments today that are claiming war crimes are being committed, not just Iran, but states in the Gulf, Lebanon, there are steps they can take. It’s critical. If there’s ever going to be justice, if the perpetrators of the crimes that killed the schoolgirls in Iran, that are killing people across the region, if there are any hope for justice, there needs to be preservation of evidence today. That means securing sites, securing the weapons remnants. It means engaging with investigators so they can — every single day that passes, the evidence degrades. Ultimately, the path to justice is uncertain, but for it to even have a chance, states need to act. The human rights defenders are ready. What’s lacking is political will.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And also, could you talk — comment on the situation that we’ve been discussing in Lebanon in terms of Israel once again moving into Lebanese territory?
OMAR SHAKIR: Absolutely. Look, I mean, we have a clear track record of the Israeli government committing grave war crimes and other abuses in Lebanon, even during the so-called ceasefire over the last year. What we’re seeing now with these mass evacuation orders, we saw that same playbook used in Gaza. Human Rights Watch investigated those particular incidents and found that they amounted to war crimes and crimes against humanity, because it is impossible for you to order hundreds of thousands of people to evacuate. There’s no safe place for them to go. There’s no showing that that sort of mass order is necessary by — you know, is necessary, given what the Israeli government has shown. They have not shown, made a sufficient finding that that’s warranted.
And ultimately, what we see is grave risk for civilians. Remember, there are many people that can’t evacuate — older people, people with disabilities. And in addition to that, the people that are being evacuated aren’t necessarily finding safe places to go, because we’ve seen the Israeli government strike throughout the country. A ground invasion also portends even further damage.
So, the situation in Lebanon is extremely worrying, especially when we know the context of what happened after October 7th and even during the ceasefire, where you continued to see Lebanese being killed. Ultimately, the Israeli government, because of impunity, is emboldened across the region. And unless we see a strong response from states that are willing to use the tools of accountability, as well as willing to take action, the risk to civilians across the region will continue to grow and grow, day by day.
AMY GOODMAN: Omar Shakir, we want to thank you for being with us, new executive director of DAWN, speaking to us from Amman, Jordan, and Lylla Younes, investigative journalist and writer based in Beirut. We’ll link to your new piece for Drop Site News, “Mass Expulsion in Lebanon as Israel Expands War: ‘We Don’t Know Where to Go.’”
Coming up, President Trump fires Kristi Noem as secretary of homeland security, as — thank you so much. We’ll be back in a second.
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AMY GOODMAN: “Everybody Deserves to Be Free” by the Resistance Revival Chorus.
