“No Stupid Rules of Engagement”: Ahead of Iran War, Hegseth Halted Efforts to Limit Civilian Deaths


This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

AMY GOODMAN: Iran has accused the U.S. and Israel of killing more than 1,300 civilians and striking over 10,000 civilian sites during the first 12 days of the war. U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth described Tuesday as the “most intense day” of U.S. attacks on Iran to date.

Israel is also escalating its attacks on Lebanon, killing at least 19 people today, bringing the total to at least 570 since the war began. Nearly 800,000 people have been displaced in Lebanon. Earlier today, Israel struck a high-rise apartment building in central Beirut.

Meanwhile, Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps said it launched overnight its “most intense and heaviest operation” targeting Israel, as well as U.S. allies in the Gulf. The New York Times reports that Iranian strikes over the past 12 days have damaged at least 17 U.S. sites so far, including military bases and key air defense infrastructure. On Tuesday, a drone attack hit a major U.S. diplomatic compound in Baghdad, Iraq. The Pentagon has also revealed 140 U.S. troops have been injured, in addition to the seven U.S. service members killed. Another service member has also died.

On Tuesday, Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal spoke to reporters after receiving a classified briefing on the war.

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL: I emerged from this briefing as dissatisfied and angry, frankly, as I have from any past briefing in my 15 years in the Senate. I am left with more questions than answers, especially about the costs of the war. My questions have been unanswered, and I will demand answers, because the American people deserve to know. And I guess I am most concerned about the threat to American lives of potentially deploying our sons and daughters on the ground in Iran. We seem to be on a path toward deploying American troops on the ground in Iran to accomplish any of the potential objectives here.

AMY GOODMAN: We begin today’s show with Akbar Shahid Ahmed, senior diplomatic correspondent for HuffPost. His recent piece is headlined “Israel Is Applying ‘Gaza Logic’ To Lebanon — With Trump’s Blessing.” He’s also reported on how the Pentagon, under Pete Hegseth, has slashed teams meant to limit civilian casualties. His upcoming book titled Crossing the Red Line: Biden, His Advisors, and Israel’s War in Gaza.

Akbar, thanks so much for being with us again. I want to start off with this piece you wrote, “Before Trump Bombed Iran, Pentagon Slashed Teams Meant To Limit Civilian Casualties.” Explain.

AKBAR SHAHID AHMED: Absolutely, Amy. There’s been a real effort in the U.S. government, through the kind of post-9/11 moment, through the catastrophes in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, to try to learn some lessons from that experience, to think, “Why does the U.S. end up in these situations where it has these huge strategic goals, it says it’s going to remake the Middle East, promote democracy, promote civility, and instead you see continued chaos and often backlash?” And a big focus of that has been: How do we make the U.S. less damaging toward civilians? How do we try to uphold international law and also reduce the impression that the U.S. is cavalier about the lives of those abroad?

That’s been a bipartisan effort. It actually continued even through Trump one into the Biden administration, which made several steps. It set up teams within the Pentagon, within combatant commands at low levels that were doing things like red teaming, which is assessing whether a strike is proportionate, or having investigations of U.S. military operations and actually publishing reports about how many civilians were killed. Pete Hegseth comes into office January 2025, and you see the Trump administration systematically start to destroy that.

So, what my sources have told me within the military and sort of close to those discussions is that they are deeply worried we’re now in the biggest war since that entire machinery has been taken away. What I mean by that is people who were tracking civilian casualties have been reassigned to other jobs. People — conversations that might have happened about, “Should we do this?” or “What could this result in for us in terms of international law or war crimes under U.S. law?” those aren’t happening. And that puts civilians abroad at much greater risk. It also puts U.S. service members at risk of being implicated in possible war crimes. And the narrative from the Trump administration, combined with this, is really alarming for people, because you have Secretary Hegseth out there saying things like we have, quote, “no stupid rules of engagement.”

AMY GOODMAN: Let’s go to Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth speaking last week.

DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: B-2s, B-52s, B-1s, Predator drones, fighters controlling the skies, picking targets, death and destruction from the sky all day long. We’re playing for keeps. Our war fighters have maximum authorities granted personally by the president and yours truly. Our rules of engagement are bold, precise and designed to unleash American power, not shackle it. This was never meant to be a fair fight, and it is not a fair fight. We are punching them while they’re down, which is exactly how it should be.

AMY GOODMAN: Talk more about what he is saying, Pete Hegseth, defense secretary, who President Trump calls war secretary.

AKBAR SHAHID AHMED: This kind of language, Amy, of “maximum authorities,” of “it’s not a fair fight,” this is language that’s pointing to concerns about proportionality. Is this a site that’s being taken into account of what the collateral damage might be? Are those attacks actually in line with international law? And it’s important to remember that we’ve actually seen within the last couple of years the International Criminal Court issue its first arrest warrants for leaders aligned with the U.S. — for Benjamin Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant — often citing the statements of those leaders themselves. So, the worry for a lot of experts, and even some people within and close to government, is: If you’re out here saying we’re not playing fair, we’re not following any rules, what does that both send internally as a message to the people launching these strikes, and what does that mean for your legal liability? It’s the International Criminal Court. There’s also many countries that pursue what’s called universal jurisdiction. If you violate international law to a serious degree, we will prosecute you. So, this raises the specter of U.S. officials or service members down the line facing prosecutions and investigations. And it’s not a defense under international law to say, “I was following orders from the president or from Pete Hegseth.” Pete Hegseth is out here saying “by the authorities vested in me.” That doesn’t provide a defense for someone who’s been involved in an unlawful strike.

And I just add two more important data points here. One is, of course, the boat strikes the Trump administration has also been pursuing in the Pacific, in the waters around Venezuela, as well. Those have been also apparently violating international law. Right? Those have been attacking shipwreck survivors. Those have killed more than a hundred people on really vague charges. And so there’s a pattern that’s been set of these potentially illegal strikes by service members.

And then, Amy, coming back to my reporting, I actually reported at the end of last year that a lot of the experts on international law, the laws of war, international humanitarian law have quietly been leaving the Trump administration. These aren’t people who necessarily have been fired, but they’ve gotten the sense that they’re either no longer wanted or, if they give their frank legal advice, they will be retaliated against. So, those guardrails inside the government for how the U.S. operates, those have crumbled really rapidly.

AMY GOODMAN: And you have also pointed out that — let’s see if I can find the CENTCOM quote of the chief saying that it’s going to lead to more casualties, CENTCOM chief Brad Cooper saying harm to civilians by U.S. forces “risks our credibility and trust and puts our troops at risk.”

AKBAR SHAHID AHMED: It put the U.S. in a position — and it’s it’s striking to see this after the Gaza war and the huge accusations of war crimes potentially implicating the U.S., and certainly implicating Israel — it puts the U.S. in this position that many military and intelligence professionals have not wanted to be. They don’t want to be associated with attacks like the school strike in Minab, Iran. They don’t want to be associated with bombing of the capital of Beirut.

But what there’s such a concern, especially in this administration, of kind of: Is there anything that’s wanted beyond a culture of yes men? Right? And so, while Admiral Cooper is the head of CENTCOM, you have Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Dan Caine, who’s also made similar comments previously about “We need to restrict civilian casualties. It hurts us strategically.” Are they either getting through to President Trump, or do they feel that they want to do that? Does that risk their own jobs, which has its own concerns?

AMY GOODMAN: Akbar, more evidence has emerged linking the United States to that missile attack last week on a girls’ primary school in southern Iran that killed about 175 people, mainly girls. A New York Times analysis of missile fragments from the site resembles the markings of a U.S.-made Tomahawk cruise missile. Video also shows a Tomahawk hitting the area at the time of the attack. On Tuesday, a majority of Senate Democrats sent a letter to Hegseth calling for a swift investigation. During a news conference Monday, President Trump repeatedly claimed Iran had carried out the attack.

REPORTER: Tomahawk missile likely destroyed that Iranian girls’ school. So, will the Americans, will the U.S. accept any responsibility for that strike?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Well, I haven’t seen it. And I will say that the Tomahawk, which is one of the most powerful weapons around, is used by — you know, is sold and used by other countries. You know that. And whether it’s Iran, who also has some Tomahawks — I wish they had more. But whether it’s Iran or somebody else, the fact that a Tomahawk — a Tomahawk is very generic. It’s sold to other countries. But that’s being investigated right now.

SHAWN McCREESH: Mr. President, you just suggested that Iran somehow got its hands on a Tomahawk and bombed its own elementary school on the first day of the war, but you’re the only person in your government saying this. Even your defense secretary wouldn’t say that when he was asked, standing over your shoulder on your plane on Saturday. Why are you the only person saying this?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Because I just don’t know enough about it. I think it’s something that I was told is under investigation. But Tomahawks are used by others, as you know. Numerous other nations have Tomahawks. They buy them from us. But I will certainly — whatever the report shows, I’m willing to live with that report.

AMY GOODMAN: “I’m willing to live with that report.” Akbar Shahid Ahmed, unfortunately, 175 people at least died, most of them girls, when the primary school, the girls’ primary school, was struck. Can you explain what Trump is saying? He even said, “I wish Iran had more Tomahawk missiles,” and then just outright said — and he said it on Air Force One — that Iran did it. Even Hegseth, standing next to him, said there has to be an investigation.

AKBAR SHAHID AHMED: It’s absolutely surreal, Amy. And, of course, the president has made this claim even before this. He’s now made it repeatedly. And to extend it to suggesting that Iran has some of the most advanced U.S. weaponry, having been, as the administration likes to remind us, a U.S. enemy for 47 years at this point, it just beggars belief.

And it also, of course, undermines trust that this investigation will be carried out in a kind of serious and credible way, or, if it is, whether its results will ever be released. Will it be buried? Will it be dragged on? This is an administration, again, that in this sort of rule and also in their prior administration, has pushed out independent inspectors general. They have pushed out government officials who have disagreed with their political preferences or suggested wrongdoing. So there is a pattern there of: Are we actually having an honest discussion about the facts?

I think for — it’s an interesting one that gets to: Are there splits within Trump’s own circle? Because how far will someone like Hegseth go to kind of defend Trump here? And I think the president’s willingness to kind of spin conspiracy theories about an attack that clearly killed people, where there are obvious bodies, there are obvious American missile fragments, at some point just saying things doesn’t make it true, given clear evidence.

AMY GOODMAN: And before we go, the piece you wrote, “Israel Is Applying ‘Gaza Logic’ To Lebanon — With Trump’s Blessing,” if you can talk more about this war on both fronts that Israel is conducting right now?

AKBAR SHAHID AHMED: It’s deeply worrying, Amy, for folks on the ground in Lebanon who I’m talking to regularly, and just looking at the strategic picture of it. Israel was in Lebanon 15 months ago, right? It said that it carried out bombing. It weakened Hezbollah to a huge degree. It reached an agreement it was happy with. So, why are we at war again? Why are, you know, up now towards a million Lebanese being forced out of their homes, many of them sleeping on the streets, many of them without access to medical care or even aid that they got in the previous war? So, it’s raising a lot of fear.

And I wrote about the Gaza playbook because what a lot of people are seeing in this, in the kind of pattern of Israeli attacks and orders to leave areas, is concern about ethnic cleansing. There’s a fear — and some far-right Israeli officials and people close to the government are already saying — that Israel will want to seize territory here. So, that’s raising a lot of concern of: Will Lebanon, as a state, even survive after this war? And, you know, even as President Trump is out here saying perhaps he’d want to rein in the Iran war given its broader consequences for energy infrastructure, the Trump administration, from my sources on the inside, is basically paying zero attention to this broadening war in Lebanon, which is so worrying for a country that’s already been so beleaguered.

AMY GOODMAN: Akbar Shahid Ahmed, we want to thank you so much for being with us, senior diplomatic correspondent for HuffPost. We’ll link to your recent articles at democracynow.org.

Coming up, we speak to a former Marine, arrested, his arm broken, while protesting the war during a Senate hearing. And then we’ll talk about a new book, Killers of Roe: My Investigation into the Mysterious Death of Abortion Rights. We’ll speak with The Nation’s abortion access reporter Amy Littlefield. Stay with us.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: “Peaceable Kingdom” by Patti Smith, performed at Democracy Now!‘s 20th anniversary. On our 30th anniversary, which has been rescheduled for March 23rd, Monday, at Riverside Church, Patti Smith will be singing again. We’ll also be interviewing her. She’ll be there along with Michael Stipe, Hurray for the Riff Raff and other special guests. We’ll also be interviewing Angela Davis and others, coming up on Democracy Now!, March 23rd. We’ll have a live stream at democracynow.org. And if you had tickets for the February 23rd event, which was put off because of the bomb cyclone, the blizzard that was happening that day, they will be honored on March 23rd. Go to democracynow.org for details.



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