This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: We’re continuing to look at the U.S. and Israel, the unprovoked U.S. and Israel war on Iran. Earlier today, President Trump claimed the U.S. had “very good and productive conversations” with Iran to end hostilities, but Iran claims there are no direct or indirect talks with the U.S.
We turn now to look at how Europe has responded to the war. On Friday, President Trump denounced NATO allies as, quote, “cowards” for not joining the war and for not helping to reopen the Strait of Hormuz.
AMY GOODMAN: On Sunday, NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte said that 22 countries, including many NATO members, are coordinating efforts to reopen navigation through the Strait of Hormuz, but he offered few details on the plan. He spoke on Fox News Sunday.
MARK RUTTE: I know the president was angry because he feels that European and other allies have been too slow. The good news here is that since Thursday, a group of 22 countries, most of them from NATO, but also Japan, Korea, Australia, New Zealand, the UAE and Bahrain, most of the other countries from NATO, coming together to implement his vision of making sure that the Strait of Hormuz is — is free, is opening up as soon as that is possible.
AMY GOODMAN: We go now to Rome, where we’re joined by Nathalie Tocci. She’s a professor of practice at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, Europe, and a senior fellow at Bocconi University’s Institute for European Policymaking. She’s also a Guardian Europe columnist, her recent piece headlined “Europe’s reaction to Trump’s war on Iran is a disaster — for Europe itself.”
Professor Tocci, thanks so much for being with us. Why? Explain why you see it as a disaster, and the response of the European countries.
NATHALIE TOCCI: Well, thanks so much for having me on the show.
I think it’s a disaster, not actually for the typical reason why Europeans are a disaster — that is, that they are divided. Actually, this has been a war on which, actually, Europeans have not been too divided. I mean, inevitably, there are always going to be differences and nuances between one country and another. But all in all, basically, most European countries, with a few exceptions, like Spain and Norway and Slovenia — so, not exactly core, if you like, European members — most other European countries have been united in their ambiguity. They have neither condemned the illegal U.S.-Israeli attack on Iran, nor have they supported it. They have basically said, “No, we’re not going to be involved in a war,” but many of these countries have actually allowed the U.S. to use military bases based in their countries.
So, essentially, what you’re ending up seeing is a ambiguous European response. And the reason why I personally consider it to be disastrous is that it’s basically countering what, in principle, Europe should be for. I mean, you know, we were the ones that were for multilateralism, for international law. And that ambiguity is basically another nail in the coffin of our credibility, our European credibility, when it comes precisely to those norms.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: But there’s also been more vocal opposition, not just from a left-wing government such as in Spain, but in Italy itself. Could you talk about the Italian government’s response to this war?
NATHALIE TOCCI: So, I don’t think, actually, that it’s been opposition at all. And this is why I come to why I find it so disturbing. What my prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, has said has been what Israel and the United States have done violates international law. Good, yeah. Fine, yeah. We agree. But she didn’t follow it with the next sentence of basically saying, “And therefore, we condemn it.” In fact, she followed it with the next sentence, saying, “We neither condone nor condemn.” Now, to me, that is actually even worse than denying the violation of international law, right? Because if what you’re saying is, “I recognize that there is a violation, but, actually, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it,” essentially, what you’re doing is you’re unrecognizing the norm itself. So, in a weird kind of way, I actually find it even more disturbing than, in a sense, the hypocrisy of denying that this is actually taking place.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, meanwhile, the Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez has unequivocally denounced the U.S.-Israeli war on Iran and refused the use of jointly operated bases on Spanish territory for that purpose. This is Sánchez speaking earlier this month.
PRIME MINISTER PEDRO SÁNCHEZ: [translated] Europe is based on the principles of multilateralism and shared decisions — not unilateralism — international law, peace, respect of a peaceful coexistence between nations and society. Once more, this is what is being questioned once again, in this case with the war in Iran, a war that the Spanish government — and, I would say, the entirety of Spanish society — has condemned from the first moment. We do not support it, and think it is illegal. Unfortunately, it hasn’t only resulted in the cost of human lives, refugees and displaced peoples, we are also suffering from its effects on our people’s economies.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: That was Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez. Your sense of why other European countries, especially given the disrespect and the ridicule that the Trump administration has thrown at the European leaders now, since he returned to power — what’s your sense of why they continue to have this neutral or middle-of-the-road position on this war?
NATHALIE TOCCI: Well, I guess, you know, one explanation which probably would have held, I think, up until several months ago, was, well, because Europeans are scared. I mean, they’re scared of what Trump’s reaction might be. Now, the reason why I think that this is an explanation that held in the past more than it does today is that we’ve already had more than a year of this, right? I mean, we’ve had a year of Trump threats to Europe over Ukraine, over Greenland, over trade — and now, of course, you know, Hormuz and Iran. And actually, the evidence suggests that when Europeans actually straighten their backs, the world does not fall on their heads, right? When they bend the knee, they simply invite more bullying from the White House. And this is why I just think, you know, that that fear explanation simply doesn’t add up at this point in time.
Now, this needs another explanation, and this gets into the politics of it. Essentially, what you’d be — I mean, in the same way as in the United States there has been this right-wing wave, you know, captured by Trump and the MAGA movement, in a European sort of version, or versions, a similar story can be told about Europe. And so, what you end up having is governments that either are far-right, like my own, in Italy, or governments, like in Germany, for example, that are center-right, but that fear — or, in fact, in the case of France, fear the arrival of the far right and end up adopting part of their agenda. So, I think, you know, beyond this element of fear — “Hey, what’s Trump going to do?” — I think there’s this fundamental explanation, which is, you know, many of these governments have actually done a very similar page to that of Donald Trump.
AMY GOODMAN: So, you have, on the one hand, the German Chancellor Merz allowing the largest U.S. military base in Germany, Ramstein, to be used in the bombardments of — and Brits also doing the same with their bases in Cyprus. But I want to ask what this means for NATO, and what this means for Russia’s war on Ukraine.
NATHALIE TOCCI: Well, I mean, what this means for NATO, you know, this is another iteration of Trump’s threats to NATO. Right? I mean, again, you know, we’ve seen this playing out in different ways. And I think it fundamentally undermines the credibility of NATO, which rests on trust, right? I mean, I think the story of the last year has been the severing of trust across the Atlantic. And given that NATO’s Article 5, on collective defense, relies precisely on that trust, you know, does anyone actually think that if Europe or a European country would be in danger, the United States, led by Donald Trump, would come to the rescue? Right? Or maybe it would be Donald Trump’s America which would be doing the threatening, right? So, I think, you know, on the one hand, we have a sort of a real vulnerability at the heart of NATO, which is really coming to the fore.
And when it comes to Russia, yes, you know, a superficial reading might be, well, you know, Russia allied with Iran, Iran taking a beating, and therefore Russia down — Iran down, Russia down. But, actually, Russia up, tragically, right? And Russia up, A, because of the price of oil; B, because of the lack of interceptors that the United States can provide to Ukrainians, bought by the Europeans; and, C, because — and this is where we circle back to this broader question of international law — you know, Vladimir Putin very much agrees that international law is not relevant frame to determine whether a country should invade another, right? I mean, that’s precisely what he’s been doing in Ukraine. And so, to have a world in which it’s the survival of the fittest that, basically, you know, is the name of the game is a world which Vladimir Putin is very comfortable with.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally — we just have 30 seconds — do you think what President Trump just posted on Truth Social may be because the markets are tanking in India — rather, in Asia even worse, saying that he’s had “good and productive conversations” with Iran and that all hostilities could soon be over? Of course, Iran is denying any conversation like this has taken place.
NATHALIE TOCCI: Well, look, I mean, I’ve got little doubt in my mind that Trump is looking for out, right? I have far more doubts in my mind that Iran is willing to be out at this point, alongside, of course, Israel, as well. And so, if Iran is not willing to play ball, what is it that may make it change its mind? And it may be that, you know, we will need to see others trying to persuade the Iranians, like the Chinese. Certainly not the Europeans, right? I think Europeans have lost all credibility in the eyes of the Iranians, and not only when it comes to the Middle East.
AMY GOODMAN: Nathalie Tocci, I want to thank you for being with us, professor of practice at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. We’ll link to your piece in The Guardian, “Europe’s reaction to Trump’s war on Iran is a disaster — for Europe itself.”
Coming up, the Center on Conscience and War is reporting a spike in inquiries from soldiers to be conscientious objectors so they can avoid fighting a war against Iran. Back in 15 seconds.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: A rendition of “Wade in the Water” by Rutha Mae Harris, one of the SNCC Freedom Singers, performing for the memorial service of Mary Travers in 2009 at Riverside Church here in New York, where we will be tonight — 7 p.m. is the live stream and the event — as we commemorate 30 years of Democracy Now! and look to the future.
